[begin transmission]

Kermit,

------- In what way did Alice2 wrong Anya, Yui, and daggy? -------

As I’ve told Fred, I delayed mentioning what specifically Alice2 did to upset Anya, Yui, and daggy, to prevent any chance for misunderstanding.

I wanted to get clear and concise statements directly from those involved, rather than submit my own personal conjecture.

Here are their responses:

https://imgur.com/a/usw3Q

It’s safe to say that none of them want anything more to do with this.

As such, I’ll be respecting their wishes and will no longer pester them about this. I suggest you and everyone in aneki do that same.

This response is likely not going to bode well with you.

Of course they want nothing to do with this, right? They committed the crime, got away relatively scot-free, and are happily living out their wretched little lives.

Meanwhile, your good friend Alice2 is still suffering. Suffering that was brought on by their reprehensible acts.

They OUGHT to answer for it. They owe her an apology, if they truly do regret what they have done.

That particular side of the issue isn’t lost on me, Kermit. I hope that you do realize that I’m sympathetic to your viewpoint.

If I weren’t, and I need to preface this by mentioning that I’m saying this will all the humility I can muster, I wouldn’t have bothered with our correspondence.

But by that same token, I ask that you consider Anya, Yui, and daggy’s position as well. For the sake of everyone involved.

So that maybe, this entire ordeal isn’t a complete failure. We can prevent such a thing from happening again in the future.

The fact of the matter is that Anya, Yui, and daggy felt wronged enough to dox Alice2.

You maintain that they were not justified, because their grievances are not based in reality. Most (if not all?) of their issues with Alice2 were illusory, stemming from something else.

I also maintain that they were not justified, but in the strictest sense of the word: they did not act in a way that was ‘correct’ or lawful. However, I don’t believe most of their issues were illusory.

I’ll admit, the way that they handled it was awful. But I also maintain that the way Alice2 treated them was awful. She could’ve certainly handled the situation better.

Could you please at least concede a little bit of ground here with my assertion that Alice2 treated them cruelly? Here’s my case.

Recollect the Makoto incident, where she changed the names in the chat. You brought it up, and I think that was certainly one of the ways Alice2 wronged Anya and Mako. Lets go with that.

On the surface, the simple act of changing a name in a chat room for a day doesn’t seem to warrant participation in a dox. That’s what you were trying to indicate. Objectively, true.

I implore you to revisit Alice2’s post, ‘Shark Fin Soup’. You’ll quickly get the notion that perhaps there was more to it than first impressions reveal.

https://imgur.com/a/Xnjwu

Alice2 recognizes in this post that the act was fairly loaded: 'I connected their past and present.’ were her exact words. Not exactly a matter to take so lightly.

I know you don’t care much for flowery language, but think about it for a second. It’s still true, isn’t it?

By outing Mako as Kamina, she undid any new ground Mako might have gained under a new identity and reinserted all perceptions of her as Kamina, memories good and bad, back into the minds around.

Of course, you and I could be callous and dismiss any negative affect that might be a result of all this. We get this luxury; we’re not the ones being outed afterall.

Compassion comes into play. It is all we got. It’s what enables someone like me, to care about your concerns, as pertaining to your good friend Alice2.

Mako was concerned with a fresh start. That was unceremoniously stripped from her. For what? An ideology that dictates that you are your past? It isn’t hard to see why she’d be upset.

There’s really too much to address; it cannot be understated that the incident was anything else other than ‘simple.’

However, I do think if you took the time out to consider their position, you could manage to find some real offense that might have occurred.

That’s what I’m getting at here, Kermit. Nothing is ever quite that simple. It isn’t as clear-cut as you’d make it out to be, as you’d like to believe it to be. I wish it were.

Moreover, we cannot reasonably dictate who gets to take offense at what, to what magnitude, and whether it’s valid or not, with few exceptions.

How arrogant can you be to think you can act as if you’re the end-all, be-all judge as to what people should value or dismiss? You don’t get to determine that.

Simply because people value different things. A debutante with a fortune ought not to look down on the beggar and tell him that his concerns over money are invalid.

Sure, you can assert that people’s actions are unjustified. Because you judge in accordance to whatever ethic you subscribe to. We have to be able to do that in order to maintain some form of law.

But that’s about as far as you can reasonably go. Anything more would be overreaching boundaries.

It is fact that people behave irrationally. It must be accounted for. Someone with the expressed desire to help others must reflect that consideration in their actions.

People are not disembodied, perfect logic. You can impose that standard on yourself and others to act that way, but be prepared to be disappointed time and time again.

Whether we like it or not, we have to take into account some feelings and some measure of subjectivity. You’d be a fool to think you can deal with people successfully, otherwise.

And that is what partially informs my bleak outlook on all of this. For seven years now the same pattern has played out again, infallibly.

It is why I don’t fault Anya, Yui, and daggy for no longer wishing to even entertain the thought of an apology from Alice2. They’ve lost faith in her.

Because they know all too well that Alice2 hasn’t changed. She hasn’t learned. There is no consideration towards subjectivity, only a misguided insistence on objectivity, invalidity, and absolutes.

There is an extraordinarily low chance that a tidy resolution will come of all this. Furthermore, the damage is done; it’s too late for apologies. To insist on them would be for levity or pettiness.

Then, 2B? What is it that you want me to do? If you see how we handle things as being so insufficient, what do you recommend? Have such extreme foresight to anticipate the worst in others?

Well, yes and no. As I’ve said before there is true malevolence around (ie Jack and Nevada). These people WOULD harm you for simply being rude to them.

Acknowledge that and act accordingly. Don’t be an idiot. If you continue to ignore this, you do so at your own peril and I will maintain you deserve the misfortune that lands at your feet as a consequence.

As for normal, scrupulous people, don’t subordinate their values to your own ideology; if you make mockery of what people hold dear, they act savagely. Don’t give them a reason to be unethical.

So, a quick recap:

Alice2 treated Anya, Yui, daggy in a manner that was awful.

Anya, Yui, and daggy were significantly offended enough respond in kind. They doxed her.

They were not justified in their actions. But they responded in accordance to whatever slight they perceived.

This is appropriate. Sub-optimal, wretched, and all too human, but appropriate nonetheless.

-------‘Alice2 deserved to be doxed’-------

Fred mentioned the very same thing to me as well. Victim-blaming. Aside from virtue signaling and an attempt at character assassination, what’s your point?

There is a reason why victimology is a real field of study. Because matters of responsibility, accountability, crime, and victimhood are complex matters.

Yes, Alice2 is a victim of an unethical act. Yes, I think she is partially responsible for it. To a degree, she had brought it on to herself.

It’s an opinion. Agree/disagree, think what you will of it. You don’t have to talk to me, that’s fine. This whole discussion was done out of courtesy to you and Fred anyway.

But I’m not going to apologize for it; I still stand by what I said.

There is still culpability on both sides; there are no perfect innocents in this scenario.

In her ‘Shark Fin Soup’ post, she mentioned that she made a decision that ‘isn’t one without consequence’, closing with ‘But it’s one I can live with’.

I could not agree more. I intend to hold her to it, even if no one else will.

I’m reminded of one of Alice2’s favorite maxims: ‘Cruel to be kind.’

I’ve always liked it, and acknowledged the great amount of truth to it. Yet there was always some issue I had with it. The abuse potential is much too high.

It allows for true cruelty under the guise of kindness. What is the limit to such cruelty? Who gets to decide that? It certainly isn’t for the target to decide, is it?

Sure enough, it is. To those who believe in the maxim, that one must be cruel to be kind, I offer the caveat: expect cruelty, in kind.

-2B

[end transmission]

If you honestly believe any of that, I see no reason to continue this conversation.

In all of your exchanges with me, you haven't yet articulated what it is exactly Alice did to deserve getting doxxed. You haven't said what it is she did to Blu, Enth or Dag.

A vague notion that she "treated them unfairly" isn't reason enough. In fact, there is NO reason strong enough to warrant doxxing anyone. It's a line that simply shouldn't be crossed.

We're in agreement that it's appalling, but it is NOT an equal reaction to ANYTHING she's done. Which so far, hasn't been named by you.

And if you honestly believe I would deserve to be doxxed, simply for being rude to someone, you're out of your goddamn mind.
I know Fred has already passed on this idea to you, but your behavior is textbook victim blaming, there really isn't any way around it.

Also I'm not a 'radical' assuming extremes. You LITERALLY said she deserved to be doxxed, citing the "equally appalling manner" in which she treated them.

However I haven't seen any proof of this.

Changing someone's chat name for a day isn't nearly as appalling as doxxing someone. You've yet to provide any other examples of this supposed appalling treatment she's inflicted on those three.

I was there, 2B. Fred was there. As were a lot of people. Records of these events exist. I've sent them to you.

I've also known them far longer than you have. I even considered Enth a dear friend once.

There is NOTHING there. Nothing at all, that would warrant a Dox.  Even a hypothetical accumulation of other misgivings isn't nearly enough.

Which, by the way, there still isn't even proof for. Proof as it turns out, is pretty important when it comes just trying to justify something as fucked up as doxxing.

And that's IS what this is. Trying to justify it.

You claim it's not, but saying that it was an reaction to something equally as appalling IS an attempted justification.

I have no doubt that they've both talked shit, but that still isn't enough. People lie and exaggerate. I've shown you two examples of those people in question doing exactly that.
I work with facts, not vague notions of "what might have been done". Nor is that even enough to suggest that Alice should apologize to them.

Because what is it exactly she should have to apologize for? And why should she apologize to people who have done something as vile as they have?

This is just me speaking of course. I'm sure Alice herself would be all too eager to apologize. But as she's told me before. "I'll apologize as soon as they tell me what i need to apologize for."

However, unlike with Alice and Enth/Blu, I actually have something concrete I want you to apologize for.

I understand your opinion in the same way that I understand the mindset of someone that blames a victim.

Fundamentally flawed. 

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

But no, Alice and Reaver deserve to suffer over a decision they made almost a decade ago when she was still a teenager.
I guess they should have foreseen people like Enth, Blu and Dag coming into the fold several years down the line, huh?
Did I deserve to get doxxed by Nevada I wonder?
That seems to be the way you've been working through this. If someone can find it, even when motivated by false assumptions, you deserve it.

You’re starting to get it. Alice2 does deserve to suffer the consequences of a bad call. They were not unearned; she was a high-profile target and failed to change her email. Negligence costs you.
She made enemies, was unapologetically brash, and had upset a group of people sufficiently that they made an appalling call in response to the equally appalling manner they were treated.
And yes, her ‘friend’ Reaver is also paying for it. I’m not being facetious here; I’m not quite sold on this person’s involvement. But that’s besides the point.
Did you deserve being doxed by Nevada? If you treated him the same way you’ve treated me in these correspondences, I’d say yes.

I find it very telling that you and Alice2 think you can be so tactless with others and not suffer any consequences.
Among the things it could indicate, it’s readily apparent that you two surround yourselves with people that are more-or-less of the same mind. No criticism there, that’s fine. It’s comfy, isn’t it?
Maybe it’s just been a good while since someone came around that had a difference of opinion or disposition. Look at how many times I’ve had to correct you and Fred.
‘Anya, Yui, daggy are justified in their actions.’ ‘Doxing is acceptable’. ‘Alice2 should suffer.’ A radical assumes the extremist out of anyone that isn’t on their side.

But let me remind you that there are, in fact, people that are less patient, less considerate, less tolerant, and less scrupulous than you. They don’t value or believe in the same things you hold dear.
Taking this into consideration, could one reasonably be so audacious and not expect some sort of blowback? From people associated with /b/, of all places?
By saying that, I mean to implicate people like Nevada and Jack: those that truly do not care. Not people like Yui, Anya, and daggy. All things considered, they’re decent, reasonable, and fallible people.
Unfortunately, they were driven to do an indecent, unreasonable act. The commonality they share is how they were treated by Alice2.

It’s astonishing to see how needless cruelty spreads and corrupts, making everyone lesser than they were in a very fundamental sense. But I won’t bore you with my musings.

Now then, by showing me these screens, you sought out to prove to me that Yui, Anya, and daggy had no basis for a grievance against Alice2, is that right?
If you don’t mind, I’m not going to address Rory; I have had zero contact with him and don’t know him very much at all.
I read through the screens you provided me, and you make a strong argument, in both cases, presenting nothing but fact.
I’m with you on those points.

Had Anya been seeking revenge against Alice2 over an incorrect assumption that she doxed Mako, Anya would have been clearly in the wrong.
Similarly, had Yui been seeking revenge against Alice2 over a misattributed anti-transgender campaign, Yui would have been clearly in the wrong.

However, are you willing to consider the very likely possibility that this animosity towards Alice2 had been bred from more than one incident?
I think this is a likelier scenario, since I’ve heard about other apparent sleights on the part of Alice2 from both Anya and Yui. There are likely more that I haven’t heard of, yet.
I’m willing to investigate, provided that everyone is on board with the idea of clearing this up. That includes you, Alice2, Anya, and Yui.
So, although your evidence is compelling, I’m afraid it isn’t sufficient grounds to completely invalidate Anya and Yui’s feelings.

Throughout all of this, not even in your semi-formal logical frame-worked argument, did you even come close to explaining why you think Alice owes ANYONE an apology.

Again, I never said that I think Alice2 owes anyone an apology. I think it’s too late for that. No, I’m of the mind that distance and indifference is the optimal route to take.
We shouldn’t be so conceited as to think that anyone involved deserves a clean, tidy resolution. It likely won’t happen anyway, considering the circumstances.
This dialogue between you, me, and Fred?
It started because the two of you had issue with my assertion that ‘Alice2 deserves the doxing.’ Which, I think you and Fred are starting to understand, but not exactly happy with.

That’s okay. It’s an opinion, and you don’t have to agree or even care about it.


-2B

[end transmission]

Well 2B, I'm honestly disappointed.
I thought maybe I had something wrong. Maybe you knew more than you were letting on.
That Dag or Enth or Blu had either lied to you or told you something I didn't know about.
Something that would convince you to stick to this conclusion you've made.

I was thinking it must have been something really compelling, something that would at least explain your decisions up until this point.

But I was wrong.
There really isn't ANYTHING beyond what you've told me, is there? You honestly believe in all of that borderline sociopathic shit don't you?

A man who leaves his car door unlocked doesn't deserve to have it stolen.

But no, Alice and Reaver deserve to suffer over a decision they made almost a decade ago when she was still a teenager.
I guess they should have foreseen people like Enth, Blu and Dag coming into the fold several years down the line, huh?
Did I deserve to get doxxed by Nevada I wonder?
That seems to be the way you've been working through this. If someone can find it, even when motivated by false assumptions, you deserve it.


Throughout all of this, not even in your semi-formal logical frame-worked argument, did you even come close to explaining why you think Alice owes ANYONE an apology.
I've already demonstrated why she doesn't, why they had the wrong idea.

You owe HER one, for your callous words that re-enforce the idea that Alice deserves to suffer.

Talking to them would be just as futile as talking to you.
You're not going to change your mind, even when reason is staring you right in the face.


And for the record, I'm perfectly capable of being cordial.
I just treated you with exactly as much respect as you deserved.


So in the interest of being insolent: Go fuck yourself.

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

Well, that’s rather unfortunate that you don’t care much for my propositions. They’re sort of central to me addressing your second concern.
Namely, my assertion that Alice2 deserved the doxing. If you’re too lazy to read it, that’s on you. I offered clarification, so I did my part.
It’s obvious that you and Fred aren’t reading as carefully as you should. Never did I posit that I was offering arguments in a formal structure, nor that I think Anya, Yui, and daggy’s actions were justifiable.
I’m doing much more for you than you deserve, considering how rude you’ve been. The VERY LEAST you can do is read attentively.

So I’m going to halt our discussion right here, until you get back at me with some decency.
I know you’re a foul-mouthed, reactive provocateur, but not bothering to read my clarifications? Add a waste of time to that.

I will say this, however: “Feels Aint Reals.” I like it; think I’ll hold onto that. The sentiment behind it certainly rings true.
Though, as I’ve mentioned to Fred, a doxing came of all of this; hence, I don’t think it’s wise to continue to defer to a witty catchphrase to inform you on what to do next. Address the grievance.
Don’t go deep into aneki and 4chan history to dig up all the screens/logs you want and offer it up as ‘evidence’. That’s comparatively easier than actually listening to people and getting to the crux of it.
Though, in truth, I don’t think Anya, Yui, or daggy wants to hear from you. Not surprising; you’ve proven to be an awful person to talk to.

So, perhaps you shouldn’t address the grievance. Alice2 should; she was the person who did those three wrong afterall. It’s only fitting.
I only hope that, when the times comes, she does so in earnest, and that the others are still willing to listen.


-2B

[end transmission]

Hey 2B!
I could very easily go with Parody, but I'll stick with being as direct as possible and "insolent" where warranted.

First of all, this entire first half of your reply, This proposal mess?
I don't fucking need it. It doesn't enhance or further your argument in any way.
Literally don't even give a fuck about it, I'm gonna level with you.

These aren't the clarifications I wanted. This is some bullshit formal argumentation causality shit I don't need.

What I ACTUALLY wanted from you was your explanation on
1.) What you think Alice did to the people that want to harm her
2.) Why you think she deserves it

“Alice2 deserved the doxing.”
and
“Alice2 provoked the doxing and as such bears some responsibility for her own suffering.”

I need justification for these two statements.

As for the latter half of your Email, I absolutely agree. I'm sure people FEEL certain things. Maybe they even FEEL as though Alice deserved to be punished.

But let's step back for a minute:

Alice and I have a mutual acquaintance. A person that used to go by "Bernkastel"
They had a phrase they used to use quite frequently.
"Feels ain't Reals".

It's a pretty good sentiment. Just because someone feels a certain way, doesn't necessarily mean it's justified or grounded in any sort of reality.


You see I'm sure a good chunk of the people I've mentioned (and you've defended) FEEL wronged. But that doesn't mean they actually WERE wronged.
And as a virtue of that, they WEREN'T justified in their actions, and Alice doesn't DESERVE suffering as a consequence.

I'm actually pretty fucking disappointed you didn't go with each of them on a case by case basis, trying to justify their actions.
Which is what you SHOULD be doing instead of this "They feel bad so it's ok" bullshit you're trying to feed me.

See the thing is, I actually know their justifications.
I can also prove why all of it is a load of horse shit.


Let's start with Enth. Vert, Aegis, Anya
Whatever the fuck she's calling herself now.

https://pastebin.com/4KZnhF9c
Take a gander at this pastebin. It's from when Fred confronted her about attempting to Dox Alice and spreading it around.
Herein lies her justification for her actions:

----------------

Hoss Delgado - 01/12/2018
did you ever apologize to Alice for doxxing Reaver?
Anya - 01/12/2018
Did Alice ever apologise for basically doing the same to Mako?
Hoss Delgado - 01/12/2018
how did she dox mako?
by saying that she was Kamina?
Anya - 01/12/2018
How did she find that out, I wonder?
Some of her personal information was revealed to alice, which is what alice used

----------------


You see this line of thought? This ASSUMPTION Enth is making? The theory that there was some sort of conspiracy to randomly gather dox information on Makoto? That she MAY have spread it around to other people?

It's bullshit.
It's provably false.

https://i.imgur.com/AUkMQqd.png

Dag literally just flat out fucking told me, quoting Kamina herself.
All fruit born of this tree Enth has constructed in her fucking mind palace is invalid. The conclusions drawn from it are utterly flawed at conception.

But hey, I gave you a timeline with those logs a loooong time ago, so you should already fucking know this.
Whatever Enth has told anyone else? This theory of hers? Any resentment anyone feels over it?
Automatically unjustified and invalid. Just like fuckin' that.

Her feelings are unjustified and not rooted in reality.

Let's move on to Rory, since he's one of the original FIVE fucking people that were in on this dox.

https://i.imgur.com/F99xAWF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZkkLNcW.jpg


Linked above is the full context of him spreading it to Jack.

In it, he mentions that "5 other people" know about the dox. He also makes up some complete and utter lie that there was some sort of love triangle going on between Mako, Enth and Alice. Which is fuckin' fish with tits nonsense.
Though I would love to see even a fucking SHRED of proof about that.

But hey, maybe you wouldn't? I mean after all you've been approaching this whole thing without any evidence at all. Just a vague notion that feelings are more important than factual information.

But I digress.
We got a guy here lying, or under the completely wrong impression over what happened.


His feelings are unjustified and not rooted in reality.

Now I'd like to jump on to Blu, or Yui as she's calling herself now.
Dear sweet Blu....

I'd like to take you for a walk down memory lane, back when all of this shit first hit the fan.
Because in these logs, we can discover the key for Blu's motivations and justifications over why she's contributed to this doxxing effort.

(12:02:19) Blu: Well by that logic, I'll just go by my guy username, shall I?
(12:02:30) Blu: because clearly I can't change my name and I can't get away from "who I was"
(12:02:43) Kermit: Blu: the difference was, you were always Blu in here
(12:02:47) Angelic: @blu yeah well youre not a former member of the community

(12:03:40) Blu: She changed A LOT, and this is her new identity
(12:03:52) Blu: Also, Kamina is a male name and she might not be comfortable going by that anymore?
(12:03:53) Kermit: Blu you didn't even fucking know mako before
(12:04:07) Blu: I know Mako how she is now. That's all that matters.

(12:24:29) Blu: So are you gonna call me by my birth name?
(12:24:45) Hououin_Kyouma: Why would i do that?
(12:24:47) Angelic: this isnt even related to anything transgender
(12:24:51) Hououin_Kyouma: ^
(12:24:54) Angelic: this is literally a flat out lie lol
(12:24:56) Hououin_Kyouma: like seriously
(12:25:12) Hououin_Kyouma: You are missing the point blu

As you can see here, to Blu, this entire ordeal was rooted in some sort of made up anti-transgender campaign.
Once again we have a poisonous tree taking root in someone's mind palace. This is despite the fact that people were there telling her directly that her perception of reality was fucking wrong.

And also, funnily enough, Kamina herself contradicting this.

(11:57:57) Kamina: Now, to be fair, I am trans. But I suppose that's a non-issue here
(12:50:47) Kamina: I fucking ditched Kamina, he's fucking dead. The reason I didn't say that is because I AM NOT KAMMINA ANYMORE! Kamina was an asshole, selfish, obsesssed, fucking narrow minded, a cunt, power hungry, and just unpleasant to be around

The last quote is something I actually showed Alice back when we had our own arguments about this. I recommend you check your records if you want to verify that nugget for yourself.

So we have Blu, under the delusional impression that Alice had done something wrong against Kamina by virtue of her being transgender.

What does Blu decide to do? How does she contribute to this whole clusterfuck?

https://imgur.com/a/R3XLA

Take a long hard look at those fucking logs. Please pardon the partial censorship, I'd rather not be a party to spreading a Dox on one of Alice's friends even further.

You can see her there, laughing, taking glee at the prospect of fucking up someone's life.
This sort of behavior is utterly repugnant and frankly despicable. But we're dealing with facts, not feelings here, right?

Take a gander at these logs from an earlier conversation with Shiki


[22:15:45] Rachel: I asked them to reveal it because I want Alice to go down in flames
[22:15:57] Rachel: But they refused
[22:16:15] Matej: If that is what you thought I think we're done here then. I'm sorry.
[22:16:19] Rachel: I also found a lot of information and made several connections, which I won't reveal
[22:16:47] Rachel: Alice is a parasite. That is all.

Now with all that we've seen and know, can you honestly fucking say that Blu was AT ALL justified in this?
Or even that her "Feels were reals?"

Fuck no, that's a rhetorical question.

You see, the crazy thing about all of this is...
Even without this mountain of evidence proving my case, just taking things at face value?

What they did was fucked up anyway. Enth had no proof for any of her claims. Blu had Kamina contradicting her literally while it was happening.
They made a conscious choice to try to FUCK up someone's life with a Dox, crossing a line that should NEVER be crossed, over things they THINK happened.


As for Dag, he's already acknowledged that his feelings were invalid because he was off his medication and drinking heavily.
I have my own problems with him for sure. So does Alice. Being drunk and fucked up isn't a justification.
But at least he's sobered up and apologized and is trying to better himself. Which is more than what I can say for anyone else involved in this.
Certainly more than what I can say about you.


The weight of trying to DOX someone Vs, these insanely petty grievances...?
It's not a justification.
Alice never brought any of this on herself.
You're absolutely full of shit.


If you're somehow under the impression that Alice changing Makoto's name to "Kamina" in the chat for a day is a justification for an attempted Dox.
You're absolutely full of shit AND out of your fucking mind.


You said before that it's too late and pointless for apologies.

However, it isn't pointless and it isn't too late for you.
You can still apologize for trying to justify a DOX on someone who didn't deserve it.
Hell, Alice might even accept it. She's a good person.

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

Here are those clarifications you wanted. I’ll forgo the flowery elements and defer to a semi-formal structure to aid you in understanding.
Also, by no means are these propositions being asserted as absolute truth. You’re free to agree/disagree.

Proposition 01:

01.) Alice2 is a person.
02.) People are flawed.
03.) Therefore Alice2 is flawed.

This one is a mere formality. If we cannot come to a consensus about this, then I fear there isn’t much to talk about.


Proposition 02:

01.) There is suffering in the world.
02.) Some of it is necessary and/or unavoidable.
03.) Some of it is unnecessary and/or avoidable.
04.) Most of the unnecessary and/or avoidable is caused by people’s flaws.
05.) Unnecessary and/or avoidable suffering is not strictly reflexive, but can affect others.

Calm yourself. Before you get up in arms over Premise 02, think about it. Sacrificing for a larger accomplishment, the wisdom that comes with failure, loss. Some suffering is necessary and/or unavoidable.


Proposition 03:

01.) People may be aware or unaware of their flaws.
02.) Of the flaws that they are aware, they should seek to correct, or at the very least take into consideration.
03.) Of the flaws that they are unaware, they should have an open mind towards healthy criticism and introspection.
04.) In both cases, the responsibility for whatever troubles those flaws may bring to themselves or others, lays solely with them.

I think you and I can agree on this, for the most part.


Proposition 04:

01.) Humans are subjective, experiential beings.
02.) Suffering is a human phenomenon.
03.) Thus, suffering contains both an objective and a subjective, experiential element.
04.) The objective elements typically include factual events and their causal relationship to each other.
05.) The subjective elements typically include the reaction to said events.

This one shouldn’t be terribly hard to understand. Example: breaking a leg is an objective element of suffering. Pain threshold is the subjective element and informs the magnitude of suffering.


In the spirit of Proposition 02 and Proposition 03 I still maintain that “Alice2 deserved the doxing.”.
Perhaps the wording is what you have issue with, but I doubt saying “Alice2 provoked the doxing and as such bears some responsibility for her own suffering.” would sit well with you either.
Please try to understand that I am not trying to make Alice2 out to be someone that deserves nothing but terrible things to happen to her.
But in this case, she really had done this to herself. I know that to you, as her friend, to see me say that is fairly upsetting. I’m sorry but I cannot offer much else but my own explanation.

>>>disseminated by other hurt people huh? Please tell me, How was Blu hurt? How was Dag hurt? How was Rory hurt? How was Jack hurt? In fact, explain to me how Enth and Mako were hurt.
>>>Blu was never hurt.
>>>Rory was never hurt
>>>Jack was never hurt
>>>Dag was hurt because he went on a sociopathic alcoholic rampage and felt fucked up about it afterword.
>>>Enth and Mako just got their facade exposed.

Proposition 04 applies here.
Look, I’m not a huge fan of the overly-sensitive types. Generally, people could stand to have thicker skins and let petty things go.
However, I don’t try to define what’s petty or not for other people, simply because I’m not entirely informed of their life’s circumstances. I have enough humility in that regard.
Fact of the matter is, some of these people feel genuinely hurt, and it generated a fair amount of resentment as a consequence.

But as I said before, it’s too late for apologies. Things have already spiraled out of control, and the damage has been done. Things cannot be made right.
All of this lobbying for apologies at this present moment? Entirely pointless.
I’ve already made my recommendations to Alice2 that she sever ties with Anya, Mako, Yui, and daggy. Fully.
Plus I’ve suggested that maybe, moving forward, she not act with such conceit. It certainly wouldn’t give people reason to dislike her.

>>>Yes but WHY? What has Alice DONE TO YOU PERSONALLY? Ever? Can you name ONE thing? What about something she's done to your friends? Can you name ONE thing?

I don’t appreciate her treatment towards Louise, but unfortunately, Louise allows it to persist. That’s one thing.

My instinct tells me that my efforts in clarification will be parodied by you. It may just very well be in your nature to be a jester and a provocateur. Hope you prove me wrong.

-2B

[end transmission]

Oh I'm sorry honey, was my language too crude? My tone too "insolent"?
That's a good one, you know. A really funny joke.

A little naughty language sorta pales in comparison to the fucked up shit you've defended.
Oh I totally agree, that was indeed an earnest attempt at arbitration by Fred. He's a good guy, you know. He actually thought better of you.
And it wasn't the OUTCOME that wasn't to my liking, it was your flaccid and pedantic response to him. The in-text version of a hand wave. Sorta like the response you just gave me!
Call it insolent, a result of my "lower impulses" all you want. But lady, lemme tell you, not a lick of it was nonsense.
If you actually took the time to read it beyond the occasional "Fuck" I threw around, you'll find that it was a pretty in-depth counter and response to every scrap of bullshit you tried to feed him.
So yes, I would absolutely love it, I mean REALLY love it if you actually addressed a single one of those points I made.
That would be absolute best.
And trust me, I'm perfectly fine. My mind is working the right way and everything. No weird emotions clouding my judgement, which is you know, more than I can say for some other people.
After all, I didn't try to lead a doxxing campaign on anyone.
As for having a real discussion?
This is as real as it gets, girl.
I'm not Alice, I'm not gonna play a cute little frenemies game with you.
I know certain people in "your" discord did something absolutely reprehensible.
I also know you defended it.
Just so your crystal clear on where things stand between us.

Looking forward to hearing back from you!

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

I can understand why you’d be upset with me. In your eyes, I’ve hurt one of your good (perhaps best?) friends. I’d like to believe that this is you appealing to your lower impulses, however.
Because what you just did was spoil an earnest attempt at arbitration by Fred.
Just because the outcome wasn’t to your liking doesn’t give you license to wreck his efforts by coming at me, spouting off this insolent nonsense.
Rude as you were, in the spirit of at least trying to improve the situation, I’m willing to clarify and answer some of your concerns.

Let me know once you’ve calmed yourself, then we can begin a real discussion. Otherwise, I’m not wasting my time.

-2B

[end transmission]

>>>Hello 2B! What follows is my response to your email to our good mutual friend, Fred. I decided to take things point by point so I didn't leave anything to chance. Enjoy!


Fred,


After some deliberation, I regret to inform you that I will not be drafting an apology to Alice2.

I’ve reconsidered what I said; I still stand by it.


>>>Alright cool, so you led someone on with an apology, that's actually impressive. I've never heard of someone pulling that sorta shit before
>>>Pretty smart though, it gives the illusion that you're capable of changing your mind about something.


“Alice2 deserves the doxxing”.

The troubling nature of these words aren’t lost on me, Fred. I can see why you or anyone would take issue with it.


>>>No fucking shit, because it's insanely fucked up for anyone to ever think anything like that is ever ok.


If I cannot offer an apology to put your conscience at ease, perhaps an explanation will suffice.


>>>It absolutely will not suffice. No matter how you slice it, it's a pretty fucked up thing to say and believe.


I’m pessimistic that it’ll be satisfactory, because of her relation towards you. But cold comfort is better than zero attempt.


>>>It's not satisfactory because it's going to be an excuse as to why you're unapologetic for something that's objectively fucked.


The truth of the matter is that I actually like Alice2.


>>>Yet you said "Alice2 deserves the doxxing". Sure. Sure you do 2B. I like people and think they deserve to suffer in their personal lives too. Oh wait, no I don't
>>>Because I'm not a fucking lunatic.


Of course, there are several aspects to her personality and behavior that I find appalling; the very same could be said about me.

>>>I find this aspect of your personality pretty fucking appalling, so yeah, at least we agree here.

But looking at her in summation, I believe her to be a person of virtue.

>>>"A person of Virtue" that "deserves to be doxxed." Gotcha. Fuckin' air tight right there.

Have we disagreed in the past? Yes. Exchanged vitriol? You bet. Cursed each other’s name under our breath? I know I have.

>>>Yes but WHY? What has Alice DONE TO YOU PERSONALLY? Ever? Can you name ONE thing? What about something she's done to your friends? Can you name ONE thing?

Despite all this, I don’t wish any harm on her.

>>>You literally fucking said "Alice2 deserves doxxing" you fucking retard.

She’s a person just like anyone else. Limited, flawed, and misguided. But, personhood commands a baseline level of reverence. Another truth.

>>>You mean the reverence that someone shouldn't have their personal lives fucked up over petty internet bullshit? Yeah I agree. Oh wait lol


And part of that reverence entails that people shouldn’t suffer anymore than what is necessary.

>>>Than what is necessary? What the fuck? What has Alice done to deserve 'necessary' suffering? I sure hope this gets explained.


Therefore, I don’t believe that Alice2, as a person, deserves to endure needless suffering. Suffering brought on by the doxx.

>>>Then why the fuck did you literally say "ALICE 2 DESERVES DOXXING" This seems to run pretty contradictory to that statement. And this is your letter about NOT apologizing for that. Holy shit



A doxx that was performed by another hurt person, disseminated by other hurt people. Potentially reaching other people, who’s hurt has calcified into resentment.

>>>disseminated by other hurt people huh? Please tell me, How was Blu hurt? How was Dag hurt? How was Rory hurt? How was Jack hurt? In fact, explain to me how Enth and Mako were hurt.
>>>Blu was never hurt.
>>>Rory was never hurt
>>>Jack was never hurt
>>>Dag was hurt because he went on a sociopathic alcoholic rampage and felt fucked up about it afterword.
>>>Enth and Mako just got their facade exposed.
>>>If you think telling the truth about someone's lie is equivalent to the "hurt" of Doxxing someone, you're a fucking lunatic.
>>>Also very telling to me is that Dag is so far the only one that's offered a genuine apology.


These people don’t deserve to suffer anymore than Alice2 does. Third truth. Yet, they’ve been told that somehow, their suffering is lesser. Invalid. They have yet to receive apologies.

>>>again, what suffering have they endured? please fucking tell me. And I will say in all confidence that whatever perceived suffering they've endured IS in fact far lesser and invalid compared to a DOXXING.
>>>Tell me, what EXACTLY does alice have to apologize for? To any of them? What does alice need to say? Fucking fill in the blank. "I'm sorry for ________________ "



But I’m not here to demand apologies on their behalf. The eleventh hour has long since passed.

>>>Actually I wish you would, I wish you would articulate what apology they deserve, because right now it seems pretty nebulous.


All this, I lay on Alice2’s conscience. Whether it weighs heavy on her is indeterminate. If it doesn’t, it should. Crushingly.

>>>What should? What did she do wrong? You still haven't articulated what it is. Meanwhile we have a pretty concrete example of what you did. "Alice2 deserves the doxxing"
>>>I wonder if that weights down on you "crushingly"?
>>>Guessing the fuck not.

Because I’m of the mind that one should properly take responsibility for their actions. And no, taking responsibility does not include engaging in debate over the validity of other people’s feelings.

>>>You still haven't said what those actions are. I'm sure Alice will apologize once someone actually tells her what it is EXACTLY she should apologize for.
>>>It's pretty wild to me that you STILL haven't named something.

That very attitude that perpetuates the hurt, that causes others to suffer needlessly, the chiding, arrogance, unrepentance…

>>>No, the attitude that perpetuates hurt is shit like saying that someone deserves a dox, and then refusing to apologize for it and trying to justify it.
>>>Trying to justify fucked up shit is what perpetuates hurt, you fucking pretentious asshole.



It finally resolved a series of events to it’s inevitable, tragic conclusion. Which I hope is traumatic enough to Alice2 that it encourages change.


>>>So that's it huh? You won't apologize for saying what you said because you think it was necessary to "encourage change"
>>>What change? What change do you want to see? please fucking tell me, in this entire email you never say what alice did wrong or the change you want to see.
>>also "traumatic enough"? what the fuck is wrong with you?


However, it often comes to pass that people live their lives, paying their own price for living it.

>>>Yeah except Blu and Enth aren't paying for it. Guess it's not in your Jurisdiction to cast forth any judgement. Except you are with Alice for some reason.
>>>You know, the kind of judgement that compels someone to say "Alice2 deserved the doxxing"


And wouldn’t you know it? People pay dearly, often times for a single trait. They pay over and over…

>>>Ok now that we're at the end you still haven't fucking articulated why you won't apologize for saying something objectively fucked up.
>>>You just threw up some bullshit excuse that "other people" have suffered too, without explaining what it was exactly they suffered.
>>>If you really want to prevent this cycle of suffering or whatever the fuck, you could stop trying to justify some horrible shit you said and trying to validate it.
>>>Throw all the flowery bullshit around it that you want. At the end of the day you still said something fucked up and made up a nebulous excuse for it.

>>>So fuck you. You have a hand in my friend's suffering. You justify and defend the unjustifiable and indefensible actions of other people.
>>>And you know what? I don't think you deserve doxxing. I don't think any of them do.
>>>Funny how that works huh? You wrong us at every turn, and have the gall to say we deserve to suffer.
>>>Yet we haven't done a goddamn thing to you.

>>>So sincerely 2B, with all my heart, Go fuck yourself.

[begin transmission]

Fred,

After some deliberation, I regret to inform you that I will not be drafting an apology to Alice2.
I’ve reconsidered what I said; I still stand by it.

“Alice2 deserves the doxxing”.
The troubling nature of these words aren’t lost on me, Fred. I can see why you or anyone would take issue with it.
If I cannot offer an apology to put your conscience at ease, perhaps an explanation will suffice.
I’m pessimistic that it’ll be satisfactory, because of her relation towards you. But cold comfort is better than zero attempt.

The truth of the matter is that I actually like Alice2.
Of course, there are several aspects to her personality and behavior that I find appalling; the very same could be said about me.
But looking at her in summation, I believe her to be a person of virtue.
Have we disagreed in the past? Yes. Exchanged vitriol? You bet. Cursed each other’s name under our breath? I know I have.

Despite all this, I don’t wish any harm on her.
She’s a person just like anyone else. Limited, flawed, and misguided. But, personhood commands a baseline level of reverence. Another truth.

And part of that reverence entails that people shouldn’t suffer anymore than what is necessary.
Therefore, I don’t believe that Alice2, as a person, deserves to endure needless suffering. Suffering brought on by the doxx.
A doxx that was performed by another hurt person, disseminated by other hurt people. Potentially reaching other people, who’s hurt has calcified into resentment.
These people don’t deserve to suffer anymore than Alice2 does. Third truth. Yet, they’ve been told that somehow, their suffering is lesser. Invalid. They have yet to receive apologies.

But I’m not here to demand apologies on their behalf. The eleventh hour has long since passed.

All this, I lay on Alice2’s conscience. Whether it weighs heavy on her is indeterminate. If it doesn’t, it should. Crushingly.
Because I’m of the mind that one should properly take responsibility for their actions. And no, taking responsibility does not include engaging in debate over the validity of other people’s feelings.
That very attitude that perpetuates the hurt, that causes others to suffer needlessly, the chiding, arrogance, unrepentance…
It finally resolved a series of events to it’s inevitable, tragic conclusion. Which I hope is traumatic enough to Alice2 that it encourages change.

However, it often comes to pass that people live their lives, paying their own price for living it.

And wouldn’t you know it? People pay dearly, often times for a single trait. They pay over and over…

-2B

[end transmission]