Alas, if only my footsteps were silent, yet they always fall heavily.

If only I could restrain myself, yet my desires control me.

If only I could know myself, yet I find myself lost in others.

If only I could remain calm, yet my emotions run rampant.

If only the right words fell in my lap, yet they get caught in my throat.

If only I could see clearly, yet clouds cover my sight.

If only I could find happiness, yet it evades me when I search.

A great weight rests on my shoulders, so my legs must strain all the harder.

I lust for many things, so my self-control must reach the pinnacle.

I must understand myself, so that I can surpass my limits.

I am unstable, so I must become able to rein myself in.

My mind falters, so I must force the simplest words to burst from my mouth.

My comprehension is crippled, so I must focus and strive to learn.

My innocence may be gone, but I may still find pure joy in life.

[begin transmission]

I'll never know the feeling of a whirlwind romance.
Those kinds of carefree days have long since come and gone.
Thanks to you, dear friend who is similarly lost to the Depths of the past,
I could always play/pause and reminisce.

[end transmission]

Note: Email in response to Reply to 2B Apology.flac

[begin transmission]

Alice2,

Your voice has changed over the years.
Unexpected.


I do have a question for you: how does it feel to be judge, jury, and executioner? This situation is remarkably similar to one at nearly the exact same time last year.
Just with my friends at the stake rather than yours.

You’ve lost me. Could you elaborate as to what you’re getting at by saying this? I was out of commission around this time last year.
Are you trying to imply that I’m attacking your friends somehow?
Let me remind you that it was initially Fred that sparked this dialogue, and Kermit soon followed.
I offered explanations to them out of courtesy. I didn’t have to. Glad that I did, however.

Now, if you followed up the question with ‘Just with myself at the stake rather than your friends.’, it would make a bit more sense.
Because, yes, I am judging you to an extent. But going so far as to say I’m being jury and executioner as well? That’s a stretch. I’m not administering any form of punishment.


If you are in need of personal development, and I’ve seen you speak much of my need of the same, I’d take a good, hard look at that symmetry. 

We could all stand to improve in some way, couldn’t we? Never tried to imply that I was perfect; neither should you.


As far as responsibility is concerned, I still maintain that you share partial responsibility in the doxing incident. You once hinted that I was ‘victim blaming’ by holding such a belief.
As did Fred, as did Kermit. What I appreciate about Kermit is that he was willing/able to elaborate as to why that belief is so unacceptable. Go beyond mere virtue-signaling.
In doing so, he brought up the second sentence on the Wikipedia page on Victim Blaming. ‘The study of victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible.’
When I read this, I was absolutely floored. If it wasn’t obvious by now, I’m a stickler for responsibility, and to make the mere discussion of a victim’s responsibility a taboo subject? Ridiculous.

So, I conducted a bit of an investigation of my own. As suspected, liberal ideology has corrupted even the field of criminology and victimology.
Have you ever heard of stereotype threat? Microaggressions? Nonsense like that? Just a few examples of why psychology and the social sciences in general are in such a sorry state. Examples of corruption.
And these aren’t fringe ideas of mine either; I did a little literature search and came up with quite a few papers that echoed the same sentiment from experts in those very fields.
But we’re focusing on victimology. In particular, I came across two papers pertaining to the field and the skew towards liberal values. I could send them to you, if you’d like.

I mean, even the fundamental attribution error that Kermit tried to pass off as so rock-solid, as it turns out, isn’t so rock-solid.
Maybe that isn’t entirely his fault. Much like how it isn’t entirely your fault that you think I’m unscrupulous because I maintain that victims share partial responsibility.
You’re both well-read in your respective fields of study. Fields of study that just so happen to be, at the present moment, dogmatically skewed left.
So I invite you to think a little more critically about the things you’ve come to accept as ‘fact’, particularly when it comes to things such as morality and psychology. More open towards opposition too.

Then, without that little ‘victim blaming’ hang-up holding us back, I have a question for you, Alice2.
In your estimation, what amount of responsibility do you bear in this doxing incident?
It’s okay to claim that you hold no responsibility in it. I’d hope you could make a good case for it.
Another question: given how you often deal with vulnerable populations, what do you consider to be responsible, appropriate behavior?

Take your time to mull it over; there really is no hurry.

-2B


P.S. Feel better.

[end transmission]

[begin transmission]

How competent are you?
The very question plagues me tonight; I cannot rest until I get something down.
Thinking to the greater context, of these types of communities cropping up over the years,
The popular sentiment is to help whoever in whatever one can.

Doesn't matter what the problem is, break-up, mental health issue, an off day at work or school.
Invariably, someone will offer up their words of encouragement, advice, and care.
In some instances, the words might even be genuine, a step above a glib platitude or soothsaying.
But it leaves me wondering, in these valuable instances, should anyone really be doing anything?

I've always been a strong proponent in the power of the individual. The power to elicit change.
Every word said, every action performed, has a very real consequence that has an impact.
Sometimes, it isn't immediately self-evident, but it manifests itself later, or in some subtler way.
And this is true for absolutely Every. Little. Thing. As well as for every little nothing.

Because those words you never said? Those things you never did? They'll cost you.
Moreover, they won't just cost you, but they'll cost the people around you too.
No one is absolutely stand-alone in this world; I've tried to be, in the past. It is impossible.
Absolutely everyone exists in a network and are tethered together, for better or worse.

The very nature of the resulting injunction is too heavy to bear and may very well be crippling.
Every little thing you succeed/fail to do or say may worsen your life. That fact by itself is harrowing.
Every little thing you succeed/fail to do or say may ALSO worsen someone else's life.
It's no small wonder why people don't like to take responsibility for their actions. It's terrifying.

To conceptualize more concretely and relating back to the aforementioned communities,
Consider the case where you are being used as an emotional dump by another.
That is, the relationship is primarily characterized by ceaseless 'venting' by one towards the other.
Assume that you are not happy with the arrangement, but reluctant to say anything.

Let's examine the consequences of succeeding/failing to say or do what is necessary.
Your failure to protest is costing you time, effort, happiness, and opportunity. That much is obvious.
'That is fine.', you might reason. 'I don't value any of those things of mine, and I give them up freely.'
Aside from being incredibly short-sighted, you are also being fatally egotistical.

Consider the person who is doing the dumping. Your acquiescence is only promoting the behavior.
It is only communicating to them that the pattern of behavior that they're engaged in is permissible.
Consequently, they're going to go out there in the world, with this misconception in mind.
A misconception that can potentially harm any future relationships that they come to form.

It doesn't end there, either. Likely, you have a few friends or acquaintances in common.
They might be aware of the relationship between you and the offender.
It is not too hard to accept the fact that people are influenced by those that surround them.
Ideas and attitudes are spread, sometimes actively, sometimes passively, as a by-product of this.

In your silence, in your refusal to address your concerns, what are you transmitting to others?
That it is okay, perhaps even noble, to become a target of such abuse. Victimhood is virtue.
It's how such awful ideas become normalized. By a sequence of people observing, but doing nothing.
It is how pathological ideas spread. And there are some out there that are far more sinister.

But I'm getting beyond my original point. Where does competency come into play?

So, you might come to accept that either way, you're going to pay for whatever it is you do or say.
Or whatever you don't do or don't say. So, you dare to speak your mind in both words and action.
But there is another layer to be addressed here that may, once again, bring pause.
How are you certain that you are saying or doing isn't going to cause harm?

Are you competent enough to ensure this? Do you have expertise or mastery?
Should you really be directing other people, about things you yourself might struggle with?

Well, as it turns out, like a great deal of many other things, it takes a leap of faith.
Sometimes, you have to risk it, and make choices to the best of your judgment.
Otherwise, nothing will get done. You'd be frozen by fear and crushed by responsibility.
And the reality of it, is that sometimes you WILL falter and you WILL fail. It is to be accepted.

There's a measure of comfort to be taken in the fact that good advice, good direction is a possibility.
And it's only fostered through the wisdom of experience and being well-read.
This should mitigate some risk, though never really eliminating it. Error will always make room.
That is what informs my opinion that people who insist on helping should take care of themselves.

You don't know anything. Learn something so that you're not useless or detrimental.
You're ill-equipped, malnourished, sleep-deprived, and unfit.
Work to acquire tools, eat right, get adequate rest, exercise. If not for yourself, for the good of others.
Because if you're not operating at your very best, you're not giving those you help, your very best.

These are not some empty, self-help doctrines that I'm peddling. It's a very real imperative.
It is your moral responsibility, as someone who desires to reach out and help their fellow man.
You must offer your utmost competence; your very best. And that is accomplished via self-care.
Anything less is negligence. And negligence is sin.

[end transmission]

[begin transmission]

Speaking of a few, select members at aneki...

[end transmission]

[begin transmission]

Goodbye, absolute control.

It was nice while it lasted. Almost made it an entire year.

But I suppose these types of things can't remain indefinitely hidden in the dark.

I wouldn't want them to anyway.

It was almost perfect timing. Can't have it all, I guess.

Edit: Welcome to my blog.

[end transmission]

[begin transmission]

Alice2,

As you’re probably well aware by now, Kermit, Fred, and I have been engaged in correspondence for the last two weeks or so.

The subject being my assertion that you deserved your doxing. Then we got side-tracked into ‘proving’ what grievances were real and which were unfounded.

But that’s besides the point. Right, so what is my point? I’ve come to realize that my original wording was poor.

You did not deserve what happened to you, Alice2. I’m sorry for being so callous and possibly hurting any feelings. Please accept my apology.

There’s a question of responsibility that remains unaddressed, but the answers appear to be contingent on personal belief and values.

I’ll continue to look into the matter myself; I’ve had a long-standing interest in morality, so I relish the opportunity to investigate for personal development.

Also, along with (hopefully) accepting my apology, I ask that you thank Kermit. Beneath that uncouth exterior lies someone of intelligence and great, upstanding character.

We certainly went our rounds and, although we disagree on a fair numbers of things, a better understanding was achieved. I think.

But besides that, he really went to bat for you. I can recognize a valuable, good friend when I see one. You’re very lucky.

-2B

[end transmission]

First Part


Well 2B, whatever conclusions you come to yourself regarding earned consequences and accountability and stuff?
You'll never have to worry about that kinda shit from me or Alice. It's a line we've pledged never to cross regardless of the circumstances.
After all, despite Nevada having doxxed me in TYF and threatening to E-mail my father falsely accusing me of distributing child pornography ( https://i.imgur.com/WJAwj5P.png )
The most I had ever planned on doing to him was sending a message to his parents informing them of what their son was doing.
Never planned anything cruel, never planned on spreading his own dox around. And thankfully it never had to come to even that last push.

The only request I have of you concerning them is that you consider their removal if they step over that line again.
And not just this current issue concerning Alice either. Doxxers make for very poor bedfellows.


Second Part


I understand where you're coming from. And I'm well aware that Alice isn't perfect, nobody is.
If you had mentioned Okuu perhaps, I would have conceded a notion that Alice had wronged someone in the past.
But as for Kaen and Mio, I don't take the word of liars into high consideration. As with Grey, I was actually there for the whole thing to unfold and I know him well enough to remark on what a piece of shit he was.
And with Lily, she never rumiated on anything that bad to begin with, and she's still around anyway.
For Muon? I simply never knew him or his circumstances well enough. But I know Alice well enough to believe she'd never at least intentionally hurt him.

As for owning the past, I'd like to believe we do. There is a reason we keep a record of so many logs. It's not just for the sake of other people, but for our own introspection.
To look back and consider if our decisions were wise or if we were just.
For instance, I wasn't the best person at the start of 2011. There are plenty of people who can attest to that. I had an awful reputation. But despite all that, I've kept my name. 
I know Alice has regrets too, who doesn't? But we own them as our own.
As for the talk between the two of you, I hope it goes as well as ours has. (Without the rocky start maybe)


Third Part


When I discuss victim blaming and victim responsibility, I do so in their legally defined terms.
As it stands by law, Victims aren't held to blame for their own victimization. You could argue in the terms of a provocation defense, but even that only serves to mitigate the punishment the perpetrator might receive.
And even then, that argument is under heavy debate. With very good reason.

And as I've hopefully demonstrated to you earlier, I don't believe Alice provoked them enough to warrant the actions they took.
Not only that, but their previously stated reasons for doing so have been shown to be based on faulty assumptions.
We need to hold people to a higher standard, especially when the consequences can be dire.
I believe the moment we start holding victims to account for their own victimization, we open a door that should remain closed.
After all, we have current examples of what that can lead to in the extreme. Honor killings for raped women, etc.

Precipitation? That's fair enough.
Responsibility? That's a whole other can of worms.

Furthermore, I'm glad you've done the research. I can't say I know many people that pay it much mind.


Final Part


Thank you, 2B.
I wouldn't ask or expect anything more.
I'll leave it to you and Alice to work these things out. Maybe she can argue about the burden of responsibility better than I can.
But at the very least I'm glad you're thinking about it. The world would benefit from more people with that sort of attitude.

Happy Easter to you too.

(Also If this whole thing was an April Fools joke I'm gonna be so pissed)

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

------'Ta(l)king it out' & Direct Statements------

I appreciate that, Kermit. But I’m still unresolved as to whether I deserved it or not.
Maybe I’m too severe on my own accountability and as a consequence I’m too severe on others for their own.
That’s not something for us to discuss and get to the bottom of. That’s for me to ruminate on.
Thanks to our conversation, I have new information to help me reevaluate on a personal level.

Concerning those three…well, there isn’t much else to be said.
I’m glad that daggy and Alice2 are no longer in contact, and that it was a mutual agreement. It really is for the best.
As far as Yui and Anya/Mako are involved, there’s no choice but to let them be with their terrible little selves.
I can’t control what they say or do outside of my Discord server, but in? You don’t have to worry about any conspiracy there.

And of course, I’m willing to approach them on personal grounds, if that is requested.


------Alice2's Behavior & Company------

I was aware of their backgrounds and have taken them into consideration; I’m not putting them beyond the ability to do shameful things.
It’s only the same repeat grievance that I’ve heard which is alarming. And honestly, it really is hard to delineate and distribute fault here.
I’m sure that some of that resentment towards Alice2 was fueled by their invalid emotions based off of faulty presuppositions. But I can’t dismiss it all.
Simply put, I knew some of those people. And there was more to them than irrationality and dishonesty. But they’re no longer around, so it doesn’t matter.

You know, considering the ideological tenets anekichat holds, of owning your past, I don’t doubt that Alice2 has examined and re-examined her past treatment of others.
Has it been enough though? I’d hate to make it seem as if Alice2 has to answer to me, because I hate impinging on the sovereignty of others. But I still have my doubts.

Time will tell, I suppose. As will a little talk with the woman herself.


-----Apology------

Thank you.


------- ‘Alice2 precipitated her own doxing’-------

To clarify, I don’t think that my victim blaming was driven by BJW. I’m well-aware of and accept that tragedy befalls even the innocent, and that sometimes the bad guys get away with their deeds.
Not to say that your assertion that BJW drives victim blaming behavior in some individuals is incorrect; that’s exactly what was demonstrated in Dalbert, 2009 and Lerner & Miller, 1978.
But the paper you linked me to states that it may be moral values (i.e. individualizing values and binding values) that reflects the 'truer’ propensity to blame the victim.
That was the take-home message of the paper. Not that victim blaming behavior was driven by a failure to empathize or a fear response.

And that’s what I’m suspecting is the case here. It’s a question of difference in moral values. The paper clearly outlines that people that place more emphasis on binding values tend to be conservative.
These days, I certainly do consider myself a moderate. I don’t agree with a lot of the ‘progressive’ values being pushed over the last two decades or so.
I’m particularly interested in seeing what Duarte 2009 and Haslam 2016 has to say on the matters of accountability. ‘…society is on a slippery slope towards low accountability and victim culture.’ Resonant.
This ties back to when you pointed out the second sentence on Wikipedia about victim blaming, that victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible…I was dumbfounded.

It suggests that one cannot even posit the idea that victims share PARTIAL responsibility in the matter. And that’s evidence of the disproportional amount of representation of liberal values in the field.
I’m really glad we had this conversation, Kermit. Because it opened up all sorts of avenues of investigation. I don’t know how you feel after our interactions, but I learned a fair amount.

Now then, about that apology to Alice2. I’ll draft one this week.
I can apologize for asserting that she deserved it. It was too harsh of wording and unfair of me.
That being said though, I cannot apologize for holding the belief that she is, in some form, partially responsible for it. I’m not willing to cede that; it would be disingenuous to do so.
But I can apologize for saying the wrong thing, and for perhaps hurting her feelings as a consequence.

Happy Easter.

-2B


P.S. April Fools.

[end transmission]

Hey, I like the way you've structured things. It's efficient
Hope you don't mind if I borrow your technique.


------Priming------

Priming doesn't have to be an new concept or idea to the person you're asking. It's a method of framing a certain question to elicit a certain response.
I've already explained what it is, so I'm not gonna repeat myself. But hey, I'll drop it if you insist. There are bigger discussions worth having.

------'Taking it out'------

Well 2B, I don't know what to say here. I don't believe you deserved to be doxxed, for one thing.
I don't believe doxxing is a price someone should have to pay for "arrogance". Now maybe you could argue you precipitated your own doxxing somehow, but I'd never say you deserved or even earned it.
Though granted, my knowledge of that entire ordeal is fairly limited. I still would like to believe it wasn't deserved.

Also 3 months is fucking nothing, want to know what real nauseating shit is? A year and 3 months.The only reason it's an issue again is because Blu is holding a grudge propped up by paranoid delusions and Dag was doing the same thing only fueled by liquor and schizophrenia

"I don’t think it was wrong of me to assume that Alice2 would try to talk it out with them after. She’s capable. Did I expect too much?"
As you've already proven, none of them are particularly keen on talking to her.
Dag bounces back and forth depending on his anxiety, but Alice decided it best to cut him out of her life, which I can't fault her for.
Blu gave a half-assed apology and then left immediately. Before that she reached out to Alice in an Email calling her a man and generally just being an asshole.
To my knowledge, Enth and Mako blocked out communications. And the following year I saw them talking shit about Alice, calling her a cult leader. The proof of which I sent you a long while ago.



------Direct Statements-------

It's not nonsense, 2B. It's actually pretty damned important. I would in fact really like to know what other justifications they have. I assumed that you would too.
And I'd say they sure as fuck need to apologize for crossing a line that should never be crossed. But yes much like you, I don't expect it from them either.

Also that's not how this works, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim! It's not alice's or my responsibility to try to refute a 'feeling' sentiment. I need fucking statements to work with here.
And as I've previously stated, Alice hasn't exactly been in any position to talk it out with them.

------Dichotomy-------

You're absolutely right here, I conflated curiosity with boredom, that's on me.
And I absolutely believe it to be rooted in malice, given her statements before, during and after the fact:
Before: "I want to watch Alice Burn"
During: "I want to expose Alice for the man that he is"
After: "I'm not sorry."
I'm also basing this on her general personality. Again, this is an issue she brought up almost a year after the fact. She is a spiteful hateful fucking person.

-----The Screenshot------

We agree here too, she is extremely sensitive.
I think it's entirely likely Alice would have apologized to her if Blu handled the situation like an adult. For instance, messaging Alice personally and saying "Hey what you said to me earlier really hurt my feelings, can we talk about it?" Instead what happened is she let it fester inside of her, and lashed out when an opportunity presented itself.
You can't fault Alice for not being a mind reader.


------Alice2's Behavior------


I am familiar with all of those names, though a few of them are from before my time. I didn't join alice's chat until the tail end of 2011. It doesn't surprise me they've echoed the same sentiment of mistreatment though.
.I mean, you should know too. You used to run help threads.

Running help threads makes you a target, and draws in fucked up emotionally damaged people from 4chan. I know you've had experience with a doxxer, a blackbox spammer (who turned out to be nevada by the way https://i.imgur.com/YTIAzmI.png dunno if nep told you), Fenn,  and...Esdeath. Who I've heard some pretty interesting things about.
And I'm sure that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Anyway my point is, most of the people you've mentioned fit neatly into that category.

I can talk about them one by one, in fact.

------Kaen-------

A Catfish. Not a transgirl or anything like that, literally just a dude pretending to be a teen girl.
Here's a picture of him: https://i.imgur.com/24YRi5V.jpg (please try to ignore the fucking tenga and onahole on his shelf). Kaen was a bit before my time, he left around when I was just coming in, late 2011.

However I've asked Alice personally about him in the past, and just now recently to refresh my memory:
Alice entered a relationship with Kaen. He was outed as a man. He continually fucked with her, including running a doxxing campaign with Chen aimed at alice.
Then he grows a conscience, apologizes to Alice over and over again for how he treated her, and then he presumebly fucked off to some hole somewhere.

If that isn't sufficient, I asked Jan and Boss what they remembered about him https://i.imgur.com/Of4F9e0.png / https://i.imgur.com/6uEJXvt.png

I hope that's enough to safely dismiss whatever bullshit he's peddled in the past.

-----Muon-----

Muon is a bit of a curve ball for me, but from what I recall I resented Alice2 because he had some weird love obsession with Alice1.
You'd have to ask for Alice about that one.


----Mio------

Mio was yet again another catfish. Here's the picture he claimed was him: https://i.imgur.com/6q6qh8w.png (spoilers that's not actually him)
Alice and him entered in a relationship sometime around 2012/2013.
https://i.imgur.com/hzNPwYV.png
The sad irony of course was that he ended up cheating on her.
Here's some of my logs from back in the day: https://pastebin.com/LxRYSZL4

Of course there's only Alice's word to go on here, but considering those are logs from AT the time, I'd hope they'd be valid enough.

------Grey------

Grey is probably the most infamous one on here considering he's the one that started that "Alice Lied" doxxing blog.

Even before that situation came to a head, everyone always thought Gray was an insufferable smug cunt. His particular story?

He had feelings for Alice
She didn't return them
he looked into the paypal
He thought it was Alice
he lost his goddamn mind (just like Blu did.)

I mean if you ever read the old blog (before most of it got taken down for violating TOS) it's pretty obvious. I could go on ad nauseum about Grey. I have plenty of records about him. If you're interested I'd be happy to send them to you.

------Lily------

Lily is by far the most innocent person on this list. The most she's guilty of is voicing grievances about an alleged relationship she had with Alice.
Alice for the record, has denied such a relationship has ever existed, for literally as I've known her.

There also isn't any active resentment. She pops into the chat from time to time and her and Alice are very cordial with one another.
Lily also has a few mental health problems, and her perception of reality isn't always 100%. She's still a nice person though and I truly believe she means well.


-----Apology------

Thank you for apologizing.
I know I've said some shitty things to you in the past as well, so for what it's worth, I apologize for those remarks.


------- ‘Alice2 precipitated her own doxing’-------

I'd be happy to define and discuss victim blaming!
Victim blaming is a by-product of something known as the "Just World Hypothesis." It's a fallacious contention that all actions and reactions are inherently fitting consequences. I'm sure you're familiar with it; it has a lot in line with the notion of karmic justice. All good is rewarded, all evil is punished, that sort of thing. It's a justification used by perpetrators of crimes and victims of crimes and also plays a role into the bystander effect.
Some loose examples are "I'm justified in my actions because this person was weak enough to let it happen" , "I deserve this because I was alone at night" and "They probably deserved it anyway" respectively.
Basically it's the idea that people deserve what happens to them. In fact it's a pretty common reaction to crime; the idea that something bad can happen to undeserving people is a frightening prospect. It implants the idea that anyone can become a victim at any time. For the average person, It's a sort of defense mechanism. "It won't happen to me because I'm careful." This is known as Invulnerability Theory.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/opinion/sunday/who-blames-the-victim.html
^ Here's a good discussion of it
http://moralitylab.bc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/NiemiYoung_2016-1.pdf
^ And the actual scholarly article itself

It essentially concludes that victim blaming is a combination of failure to empathize with the victim and a fear-reaction, as I've discussed earlier.

To answer your next question, yes. indicating that a victim is partially responsible for what befell them is in fact victim blaming. It's a core component of fundamental attribution error. Personal characteristics are overemphasized while external and environmental characteristics are devalued. An example: "Alice deserved to be doxxed because of her carelessness and behavior". External factors involving the perpetrators, and the environmental characteristics involving the nature and reason of the dox are devalued proportionally.

Now I fully agree, you shouldn't leave your doors unlocked, you shouldn't wear revealing clothes alone at night, you shouldn't engage in risky behavior, etc etc etc.
It completely falls in line with what you said earlier: those are all -precipitating- a crime. But it absolutely does not mean you are -responsible- for being the victim of a crime.
And it especially doesn't mean that you deserved to have it happen to you.

The responsibility of the crime SOLELY lies on the perpetrator, regardless of how careless the victim was. The western justice systems thankfully operates on this principle.
It works in a way that doesn't hold a victim responsible for their own victimization.

After all, we don't operate on fucking sharia law.

Alice has no responsibility for her own victimization.
She didn't "deserve" it either.
The only valid statement so far in, is that she precipitated her victimization by using a paypal email linked to a personal friend of hers.
And of course, operating in a high risk area.

Beyond that, I don't believe she's done anything else to precipitate her victimization.
She's the target of people with invalid justifications, stemming from a fair and just decision she made over a year ago.

As for the last part, believe me. I've been trying to convince Alice to quit doing threads for years, citing this exact reason. /b/ is a fucked up place, full of fucked up people. I think we can agree on that front at least.


---------Concluding Remarks---------


As stated before, Alice would be 100% willing to apologize for any injustice she's inflicted on anyone.
But the thing is, she actually needs to know what that injustice is. Since those involved aren't going to give you specifics, I'm afraid I'm just going to have to conclude that whatever other justification they had for their actions is invalid. I have no doubt that they feel bitter and angry, but as we've discussed before: "Feels ain't always reals."

And on the other front, I would still like an apology from you for Alice.
By this point you've changed the phrasing and general idea of what you said in the first place by saying it was "precipitated" rather than deserved.
So I don't think it's that much more of a step just to distance yourself from the wording entirely and apologize.

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

------- Priming -------

I still don’t see what your concern is over priming.
Those three already believe Alice2 wronged them and that they deserve an apology. I wasn’t introducing some new idea to them.
Besides the truth value of whether Alice2 has something to apologize for has no bearing on whether or not they’d be willing to talk to her.
It wasn’t dishonest. I clearly stated a hypothetical. So I’m not going to address this nitpick any further, it’s distracting from the main issues.


------- ‘Talking it out’ -------

In response to my statement:
It’s funny that you bring up my own doxing. I was just reflecting about that the other night.
I actually believe that I did deserve that. Was that anon’s actions justified? No, not really. But I can admit that I was arrogant and subsequently paid the price for it.
Moreover, I approached the anon directly and handled it discretely; I didn’t rope in an entire community to share in my misery. I didn’t let it spread to other communities either.
Within two weeks it had become old news and forgotten. That’s how you properly handle such things How long has this affair been going on now? Three months? It’s nauseating.

Fred wrote this in one of his emails:

Moreover, as you pointed out about confronting people before it got "out of hand," I don't believe the intent was to intimidate Alice or to get something out of her. If that was the case, it would have been posted on 4chan or linked specifically to her. Rather than this, it was linked specifically to people who have displayed a history of aggression towards Alice, with no history of being "wronged." Because of this, handling this discretely and quickly wasn't possible, and though attempts were made to try and handle it, they bore no fruit.

So I had assumed that there was some dialogue between Alice2 and Yui/Anya/daggy, after the doxing had occurred.
I don’t think it was wrong of me to assume that Alice2 would try to talk it out with them after. She’s capable. Did I expect too much?


------- Direct Statements -------

It’s only off of the table because I refuse to get them involved in anymore of this nonsense, and I’m not going to force them.
You maintain that they don’t want to be involved because they did they crime and got away with it, and that they can’t justify their grievances.
I’ll grant you that not all of their complaints are necessarily valid. You’ve shown me a few. But it cannot be conclusively said that all of them are invalid, when some of them are unknown.
Hence, those involved need to discuss it with each other, to resolve all this.

I’m of the mind that they’ve tried to talk out past issues with Alice2 before, and generally know how it plays out. They believe it to be a waste of time.
A reasonable theory, given what Fred said (above) and their reluctance to participate. Maybe this sentiment will fade with time, I don’t know.
That being said, it hammers home the extraordinarily low likelihood of a satisfactory resolution right now, given how people are.
Like I said before, there is no need for apologies. From anyone.



------- Dichotomy -------

That’s just a difference in the interpretation of human nature, then.
Correction though: she said ‘curiosity’. Not exactly the same thing as boredom.
It isn’t very hard at all to imagine someone being curious about someone else’s identity, digging up info, and then doxing them out of revenge once they were hurt.
So the two are fairly compatible, I’d say. But, if you truly think her to be that treacherous, I could see why you’d think it was out of pure malice.


------- The Screenshot -------

I do have my reservations about her character, but I have reservations about everyone’s character. She’s been behaving.
A lot of what you said about the screenshot I’m in agreement with, except for one thing. I do get the sense that she is particularly sensitive.
As much as I want to criticize Alice2, I cannot. As you can imagine, I have difficulty not stepping on toes too hard.
I know what it’s like; no matter how neutral or even ‘gentle’ as you might frame it, sometimes people take offense regardless.

Occasionally, people give apologies for hurting feelings though, despite not technically doing anything wrong.
Not sure if Alice2 is that type of person.


------- Alice2’s Behavior -------

Right, so when Yui stated her thought process, that “it must be my fault” in the screenshot, it sort of raised a red flag. Gaslighting.
I’m not saying this as a personal attack on Alice2. Understand that. It’s a genuine concern of mine and leads me to believe that there has to be some sort of behavioral change.
But I’ve seen this same sentiment echoed by the likes of Kaen, muon, Mio, gray, and Lily. Fairly old names, I know. Maybe Alice2 had changed since then? I want to believe that.
Yet I’m still seeing the same type of complaints, years later, from people around.

I do have evidence of this, but I think I’ll take it up with Alice2 herself, if you don’t mind.
I’m sure you’ve heard about these kinds of complaints before though. Your thoughts?


------- Apology to you -------

Sorry for that catty remark, about not caring for anyone else’s suffering other than Alice2’s. It was out of line.


------- ‘Alice2 precipitated her own doxing’-------

Could you define for me what victim blaming is? Something a little more substantial than what Wikipedia has to offer, preferably.
Though I modified my original statement, something doesn’t quite sit right at all with me…
You see Kermit, I’m of the mind that people should be held accountable for their actions and their consequences. No exceptions.
This is called responsibility. Apparently, if you indicate that a victim may be partially responsible, that’s victim blaming?

Seems to me like ‘the victim is always right’ manner of thinking. Are they to be absolved of all responsibility, no matter the circumstances?
That just doesn’t seem right at all. Provoking is a thing. It might be covered under Victim Precipitation Theory, but my understanding of it is that I cannot make a ‘responsibility’ claim.
I’m curious to know what you think Alice2’s responsibility is, as far as her involvement in this doxing is concerned. Is there any on her part?
Perhaps even more so, what her responsibility is in terms of conduct when it comes to people of vulnerable populations?


------- Concluding remarks -------

It’s been twenty-something emails, and we didn’t manage to neatly wrap-up what Alice2 should apologize for.
And that wasn’t even the original objective: the original objective is my answering for my assertion that ‘Alice2 deserved the dox’.
In the first case, I wasn’t expecting resolution. But, at the very least there is a better-informed understanding. Not a complete waste of time.
Second case…still in the works.

-2B

[end transmission]

Alright 2B, I know neither of us has any patience for a cheeky introduction. Let's just get right into this point by point.

First off, I find it highly amusing that you accuse me of nitpicking when you're literally being guilty  of it in the same thought. You're absolutely right. "Would you accept Alice's apology?" isn't the question you asked. The question you DID ask was: "suppose if Alice2 wanted to speak to you, and offer up some sort of apology, would you be interested?"
If that's not you being nitpicky, I seriously don't know what is. You can give it whatever window dressing you want, but the general thought was still primed on the basis of alice apologizing to the people who worked to dox her. Which is pretty fucked.

I know this was all supposedly orchestrated to gauge the general mood of the people in question to talk to her, but the way you asked it STILL re-enforces the idea to them that they were somehow wronged, and that any conversation would have to involve Alice apologizing for an, as of that moment, still undefined grievance.

Also "because they can't make a real case for why they were wronged" is EXACTLY right. If you want to believe they tried to talk this unknown injustice out with her in the past, you can do exactly that. But you should probably back that up with some EVIDENCE first. As it stands there isn't ANY proof of that. As for Fred confirming this suspicion of yours, he has no idea what you're talking about. Unless of course you're referring to Blu logging into the chat to apologize, before immediately taking it back and then saying she didn't actually mean it.

That's not "talking it out".
I invite you to take this opportunity to correct me.

The only reason getting a direct statement from them is off the table is because we both know any statement they give will probably be bullshit. If you're just gonna sit there and tell me that you can't even GIVE me a reason in THEIR words for WHY they decided to dox my friend, then holy shit. I'm really at the end of my rope here.

If you want to offer your own conjecture that's fine. That's literally been all this has been so far.
But let's discuss it anyway.

Blu.
It's not a false dichotomy so say she either did something out of Malice or Boredom. Those were her two given statements. Either she did something terrible out of boredom or she did it out of Malice. Those statements are contradictory and do not go hand in hand. My point there was that Blu was PROBABLY lying about why she did it the 2nd time when confronted by Fred.
I simply don't buy that someone who had previously stated they "wanted to see" someone "burn" would do something that fucked up out of "boredom".

It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, that shit doesn't fucking fit.
I 100% believe she did it with malicious intent. You can choose to believe whatever you wish, but based on her previous comments and the nature of the act itself, I'm going to go with malice.

The Screenshot.
Oh boy, this whole thing is so fucked up from top to bottom it deserves it's own breakdown.
Everything stated there is either a lie, exaggerated or an assumption.

Listen, I know you haven't known Blu that long. (And frankly you have my condolences for having her in your discord.) EVERYONE had a problem with her and her behavior. That isn't an exaggeration. If you don't believe me, I would consult Vimes or hell, even Enth about her.
Enth in fact, had the biggest grievances with her behavior out of anyone I know. Unfortunately I can't show you any examples of this, chat records only go back a year, and everything else I've shown you at this point has either been manually saved or screen-capped.

The only thing that I have on hand that MIGHT speak to this is this old (pretty ironic) screencap I have. https://i.imgur.com/9IM5tRg.png

But we're dealing with the type of person who broke up with her last girlfriend because she had an IMPULSE to tell her to "Fuck off" one time. That should tell you something about the nature of her character. Paranoid and delusional doesn't even begin to cover it.

But I digress, let's get into the specifics of this cap.
First of all, I agree. Blu's doubts were indeed unfounded, and most of the decisions she made that befell her were in fact her own fault.
She was also desperate for validation, something even Alice told her.
Paraphrasing here: "Alice must have seen me as a threat" because "I pass quite well and Alice is a trans woman who refuses to transition and doesn't believe it works."
These two thoughts don't exactly parse. It all hinges on the assumption that Alice is a pre-op transsexual. Which is something she hadn't considered until she attempted to Dox her and got Reaver's information instead. That last statement is also bogus. That stems from a conversation Alice had with Blu where Alice stated that transitioning wouldn't cure depression or solve all of her problems.
Which is absolutely true.

A statement from Alice herself:
Aneki Margatroid: It was literally a link to the study
Aneki Margatroid: showing transitioning does not substantially reduce suicide rates
Aneki Margatroid: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
Aneki Margatroid: "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."
Aneki Margatroid: Am I an asshole for citing the current research? Newer studies coming out JUST THIS YEAR suggest maybe SRS does have a good effect
Aneki Margatroid: But it's still up in the air

I'm not sure what the fuck this "beaten down into submission" shit is about, so I'm just going to ignore it.
Guessing whatever she told her therapist was heavily biased and exaggerated, much like this current sentiment.
As for the money discussion, I remember that as well. That had nothing to do with Blu's pride and satisfaction of herself; what that discussion had to do with was the meaning of what it means to be Middle Class.
It was a financial argument, not a personal attack. Alice after all, works in the finance industry. Alice has never stated she lives paycheck to paycheck. That is a lie.
In fact she's currently employing a few members of the chat for her YouTube channel and game work: Louise, Reimu and up until recently, Vimes.

I'd also like to take this moment to point out that the reason why Blu had any employment at all was because of a suggestion Alice had made.
Alice got her a job through Upwork, both to help her financially support herself and to pad her resume.
I can see that this is something Blu conveniently left that out in all of her diatribes.
Once again, this is something you can feel free to verify with members of the chat who were around during Blu's tenure there.
Alice helping her get a job? That doesn't exactly sound like someone who was jealously targeting her or berating her for her job prospects.

Sharply criticizing someone isn't the same as mistreating them. And they weren't even criticisms, it was information gauged to help Blu gain a better understanding of the realities of her transition and of her financial security.

Blu's paranoid delusions are really poking through here.
And once again, I offer you the opportunity to ask ANYONE else who was around about this.

Alice isn't a bully. The bully in this situation is the one who felt so delusionally persecuted that they decided to bite the hand that was feeding them.
It isn't bullying to give someone realistic expectations.
Doxxing as an intimidation tactic sure as hell is though.
If you truly believe you can get several people to testify on Blu's behalf, I offer you now as the opportunity to do it.

"given this is a reoccurring problem with Alice2, and it has happened with so many people, that I am correct in indicating some internal characteristic."

I would also ask you to back up this statement with specifics.

And as I've demonstrated previously, that screenshot is NOT enough to convince me. I KNOW Blu. I've known her for a lot longer than you have.
And other people know her too. Even Louise had invited her into the discord under the thought that "Blu has changed". She was of course, proven wrong almost immediately.

If you'll grant me that Blu can be "mistaken, reactive, and grandiose", then I please ask you that you believe me when I say that the problems with her are a lot more deep rooted than that.
That just maybe I'm possibly telling the truth. And if my word isn't good enough, maybe trust the word of someone you know better and trust more than me.

Is it truly more likely that Blu is delusional or that I am?

I also don't appreciate the underhanded jab suggesting that I'm indifferent to the suffering of others except in Alice's case. I thought I made thing clear regarding the events of the Makoto incident. An incident in which Alice and I had a pretty intense fight over the well-being of the chat.
I care deeply about the chat, and consider the people in it a sort of family. Ask Fred if you don't believe me. I have even spent sleepless nights talking with Dag, offering him company and advice where he needs it. You see, I still consider Dag my friend even after everything he's done to Alice. I'm aware of the circumstances concerning his choices. If you don't believe me, ask him yourself.

On the Makoto incident I fully agree with you. From the start I was pushing to just have Makoto outright banned. In fact, it was alluded to in that argument I mentioned before.
What Alice instead chose to do was be merciful. She gave Makoto a chance to come clean, and merely changed her name when the time came.
Had it been my choice, we would have just been done with it. Perhaps none of this would have played out the way it had.

But you're right. At this point it's futile to speculate.

And yes thank you, I graduated a couple years ago. Plenty of that knowledge is still stored in my noggin thankfully!
You don't need to remind me that criminology is an ever evolving field, I'm well aware.

Victim Precipitation Theory, Routine Activity Theory and Lifestyle theory all analyze a victims lifestyle choices, associations, upbringing, employment etc. They try to explain what might make them more susceptible to be VICTIMS of a crime.
None of these theories "Blame" the victim. Victim blaming IS quite well defined, and not very controversial.

There is a world of difference between saying someone "Precipitated" their victimhood in a crime and "Blaming" them for it.
It's not nuance or pedanticism, these words have entirely different meanings.

The word you chose to use at the time was that she "Deserved" to be doxxed. NOT that she "precipitated" her own doxxing.
These two thoughts are VASTLY different, believe me.

You can't accuse me of intellectual dishonesty while moving your goalpost to the fucking moon.
I WILL agree that, in some form, Alice precipitated her own doxxing on the basis of a decision she made almost a decade ago.
Where we disagree is on the metrics of her behavior to and treatment of, Blu and Enth.

But at this point, that is neither here nor there. You changed the phrasing of your original statement, and fundamentally changed the entire meaning of it.
If you're just going to retcon what you said, you might as well just fucking apologize for saying the wrong thing in the first place. Even if it's just on that basis alone, at least that's fucking something.

I'd like to believe you're virtuous as well, 2B. I really would.
I initially thought you were just being a cunt, hence my harsh language and lack of respect. But as I'm learning more about you, I'm beginning to think maybe you really do just have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.

So far your argument against Alice is propped up on the word of someone we know to be grandiose and delusional, and from someone romantically linked to another that was fairly removed from that chat.
Both of their main justifications have also been discredited.

And now you're changing the words and meaning of what you've originally said, to something I can almost agree with.

So I don't know what's left, 2B.
You can continue believing to believe their word against my evidence.
You can continue to believe the nature of their character against ours.

But I'd implore you to at least try to get to the truth of it, and not to automatically side with one part of the issue.

I would really like to hope we're closer to some greater understanding here.

[being transmission]

Kermit,

Are you done nit-picking? ‘Would you accept Alice’s apology?’ isn’t even the question I asked.

It was fairly obvious that I was gauging interest of even engaging in dialogue with Alice2. Notice that I was positing a hypothetical, not an absolute in my question.

With Yui and daggy, I had to elaborate, and even then I mentioned that it was an opportunity for an apology, provided that they fulfill the conditions of listing their grievances. This is fair.

But, as it shows, they want nothing to do with Alice2 at all. Period. Understand that.

No one wants Alice2’s apologies. They’re meaningless at this point. You’re truly the only one pushing for this. I never even asserted that Alice2 should apologize to Anya, Yui, and daggy.

Interpret their apathy towards it as you will. I’d imagine your thoughts being as ‘Because they know they can’t make a real case for why they were wronged.’ Something like that.

Another alternative, one I’m more inclined to believe, is because they’ve tried to talk it out with her in the past, and it turned out to be futile. Even Fred confirmed this.

If that is true, they’ve every right to decline talking to her or even entertaining an apology. Nobody wants to waste anymore of their time.

So that question? ‘What did Alice2 do to Anya, Yui, and daggy?’. Getting a direct statement from them is off the table.

If Alice2 wants to hash it out with either one of those three, she could. It’s their business, not ours.

However, for the purposes of complying with your requests, I can now in good conscience offer my own conjecture.

Just to be clear, we can dismiss daggy, correct? It’s mutually agreed upon that he wasn’t sound of mind when he did this. The focus on Anya/Mako and Yui.

------- Yui -------

First, I’d like to discard your false dichotomy, that either Yui lashed out in response to mistreatment OR she conducted it out of boredom.

Well, CLEARLY it’s both. In a few sentences preceding your presentation of this dichotomy, you state that Yui said the she ‘Wanted to see Alice burn’.

That’s a clear indication of malice in intent, which, I argue is bred from how she was treated. Yui’s own words, demonstrated by Fred’s records, confirms it was also out of curiosity/boredom.

Again, the issue is nuanced and multivariate, Kermit. This doxing is likely not attributable to a single factor or incident, but several. Please keep that in mind.

That being said, I’d like to share this screenshot of part of a conversation I had with Yui not too long ago:

https://imgur.com/a/i1op3

Here, Yui describes some of the mistreatment at the hands of Alice2. Sure, you can dismiss it and say ‘There are no specific incidents of wrong-doings.’ But that’s not what I’m arguing.

I’m arguing that a lot of the resentment Yui feels towards Alice2 does not originate from a singular, grand incident, but several minute ones.

Yui mentions having her transition and career aspirations sharply criticized. To me or you, who do not value such things, we do not see what the issue is.

But to Yui, who DOES care about these things, well…they’re going to have some kind of effect. And the effect was significant enough that she had to bring it up with her therapist.

And thank goodness she did. Because her therapist indicated what I couldn’t put into words for so long. Alice2 is a bully, plain and simple.

It isn’t just Yui that maintains this either; several can testify. Most of them aren’t around anymore (thank goodness), but there are a few lingering about. Some of them are even among her friends.

You mentioned fundamental attribution error: undue emphasis on internal characteristics of another person, rather than external factors.

I’m inclined to think that, given this is a reoccurring problem with Alice2, and it has happened with so many people, that I am correct in indicating some internal characteristic.

As I hinted at before, I’m not one for this culture of weakness that is often associated with cyberbullying. People could stand to toughen the hell up.

But keep in mind that Alice2 operates in a domain that includes vulnerable populations. Yui, Anya/Mako, and daggy all fall into this group.

I cannot attribute her behavior to ignorance; she knows all of this, yet she has proven time and time again to be tactless and irresponsible.

Granted, I think some of what could be construed as harshness on her part is necessary, but there is a point where ego and cruelty supersedes the well-being of others.

If this screenshot isn’t sufficient enough for you, for you to even consider the possibility that Alice2 wronged Yui in some manner, then I have very little hope that there is any convincing you at all.

Because, in order to fulfill what I presume to be your criteria of ‘evidence’, and hand-picking some isolated incidents of Alice2 wronging Yui, we’d have to comb through anekichat logs.

I’m not sure if you’re up for that. I’m not even sure if you’re capable of that, given your indifference towards anyone’s suffering other than Alice2’s.

It’s your chat, you keep the records, so it’s your call to make.

You can maintain that what Yui felt was invalid, for any number of incidents. And I’ll grant that; clearly Yui can be mistaken, reactive, and grandiose at times. She’s not perfect.

But past a certain point it appears delusional on your part, suggesting that perhaps you think Alice2 can do no wrong.

------- Anya/Mako -------

I took a few moments to review what happened with the Makoto incident, and I’m a little more sympathetic towards the decision, all things considered.

I wasn’t aware of the previous things Mako had done. Alice2 had every right to rid the chat of someone she believed to be endangering the others.

However, I still have my reservations with how she handled it. It wasn’t as poor as I initially thought, but it could’ve been handled better.

I’m not going to tell Alice2 how to run her chat, but I’m of the mind that she could’ve done without the theatrics altogether, and resort to a simple ban.

Afterall safety of other members was the paramount concern here, right?

But to criticize the decision at this point is utterly futile. It’s done, and it brought out the worst in Anya and Mako.

------- ‘Alice2 deserved to be doxed’ -------

Two degrees in criminology? I never knew that about you, Kermit. It’s sort of comforting to know that you’re a credentialed scholar and are relatively well-read and informed.

But that also makes my expectations of you all the more loftier.

Let me remind you that criminal justice is an ever-evolving field, just like any other academic subject. There is a constant flux of new data, theories being reformulated, and new ones developed.

There are a few central pillars to any field that are unanimously agreed upon, sure. But I’m afraid that your indication that victimology is absolute does not fit into that corpus.

As it turns out, victimology is a fairly controversial field. It isn’t as unanimously agreed upon, as you would have me to believe. I’m not as ‘rong’ as you’d like to think I am.

If I were, then explain to me why there are such theories as ‘Victim Precipitation Theory’, ‘Routine Activity Theory’, and ‘Lifestyle Theory’?

I took quite an interest in Victim Precipitation Theory, attributed to Marvin Wolfgang, a celebrated criminologist. I should thank you for that, for introducing me to a new, interesting idea.

Maybe the theory wasn’t part of the curriculum in your victimology classes? Could also be that you had simply forgotten. Intellectual dishonesty? In any case, a quick refresher:

Victim Precipitation Theory posits that, in certain scenarios, victims themselves behave or initiate confrontations such that the offender is provoked, precipitating into an attack on the victim.

The context of this assertion came from Dr. Marvin Wolfgang’s analysis of homicide cases in Philadelphia, noting that in several cases, altercations were initiated due to actions of the would-be victim.

This leads to the conclusion that, criminal acts, the victim is not entirely blameless and innocent. Often times the victim’s actions provide criminal motivation to the offender.

There are two classifications of precipitations: active and passive. Intuitively, they’re what they sound like. Active is when the victim knowingly provokes, passive when he or she is provoking, unaware.

Moreover, I came across this paper, published in The International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology:

http://ponce.inter.edu/acad/facultad/jvillasr/LECTURAS/Victimologica%20Developments.pdf

If you’d turn your attention to the bottom of page 460, top of 461, under the header of ‘Situation-Oriented Theories’, you’ll find the following passage:

It is occasionally misinterpreted as victim coresponsibility, responsibility assignment, and blaming the victim (Krahé, 1989). The dynamic, interactionist perspective of victim precipitation does not, however, appraise victim behavior. In this kind of interpretation model, there is no room for normative or value judgments such as guilt or responsibility (Fattah, 1994, p. 96).The model ultimately

describes only the misinterpretation of victim behavior by the offender. The illusionary misinterpretation of the situation by the offender, which is evoked by the victim’s behavior (Michaelis-Arntzen, 1994), is merely a substantiation of rape-supporting stereotypes in the rape situation. The concept of victim precipitation, which is based on the theory of symbolic interaction and which does not in any way dispense the offender of his exclusive responsibility, thus only marks the application of social structural theory and cognitive social learning theory in the rape situation. The denial of an offender-victim relationship in the rape situation and of a potential victim precipitation reinforces the questionable proposition that rape is an uncontrollable event and that the victim cannot take any preventive action (Heath & Davidson, 1988). This promotes the learned helplessness of the potential rape victim who refrains from developing self-protection measures, because of their assumed futility, and succumbs to his or her fearful, self-defined, victim attitude.

I’m recapping VPT and mentioning this passage to make two points:

First, I revise my statement. Alice2 precipitated her own doxing. I still have my personal value judgments on the matter, but you need not concern yourself with those.

Second, this passage ties back neatly with my recommendations to Alice2 to reevaluate her behavior, so that this kind of thing doesn’t happen again.

I’d maintain that she was actively precipitating, by chiding on Jack and co. and being purposefully condescending. But perhaps there are character flaws she’s truly not aware of? Might very well be passive.

It is the viewpoint of several others that she plays the victim too readily. Is this a form of learned helplessness? Maybe this could change that.

Although I find this theory fascinating, it isn’t without it’s critics. See? Told you victimology was controversial and not as clear-cut.

I offer you this other paper I’ve found, from The Criminal Justice Review:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/073401688400900209

I couldn’t access it because I’m not on campus this week, but I invite you to read it.

Why would I want you to do that? Well, because that’s what true intellectual honesty is. Addressing both sides of the argument, even attempting to bolster the opposing side.

So far, I’m not convinced you’ve been doing me the same courtesy. You’ve only tried to obfuscate the existence of another position, contrary to your own, by asserting absolutes. Make up for it.

But I guess according to you we should always prepare for the worst from people.

You should. Idealists get sorted out rather quickly by the world.

It is funny though, despite everything they tried to do to her: We never for one moment considered doxxing them in return.

And I believe you wouldn’t, neither you nor Alice2. As I said before, I believe her to be virtuous, perhaps you as well.

-2B

[end transmission]

Hello 2B!

In the interest of keeping this conversation civil I've replaced my usual vulgarity and expletives with safe for work language.
I hope this is easier to digest for you.

Now where do I begin with this gosh darned mess? Let's just take things point by point!

Ok so first off, the original question was "what did Alice do to Enth, Blu and Dag".
You even acknowledged this in your silly little opening.
However, that is not the question you asked!

"Would you accept Alice's apology" is a pretty radically different question. Pretty loaded too!
You see, the question is already assuming Alice has something to personally apologize to them for.
It's pretty different from the entirely neutral question of "Why are you upset with Alice" or (the less neutral but still acceptable) "What did she do to make you act this way."

In fact, as I'm sure you're well aware, this tactic is known as "Priming".
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/weekinreview/28sussman.html
You primed them people a certain way by asking that specific question with that specific wording.
It's quite intellectually dishonest.

But regardless let's go down the list:

Enth's "No" isn't much to go on. Maybe if you had asked "why not", or "why do you feel that way", we could have gotten an answer that I could work with. But oh well.

Dag is actually the wild card here, he's recently given me a statement that runs directly contrary to the narrative you're weaving for him here, but I gave him my word I wouldn't share what exactly he told me.
However, he did tell me that he would be talking to you about his feelings on the matter personally, so keep an eye out for him. it's part of the reason why my reply has been delayed.

Now Blu over here, she sure is a piece of something isn't she?
I would like to point out that she told us to "get over something that happened almost 3 months ago." The irony of course being the fact that she decided to Dox Alice about a full year after she had left the chat.
It's funny to me how that works. She also mentioned something about how Alice needed to message her? She is of course, completely capable of messaging Alice herself. In fact, in their last E-mail exchange, Blu abruptly stopped talking to her.
Ball is totally in her court there.

We'll get back to Blu later on though, I'm not quite finished with that sweet little cupcake yet!

You see, fortunately for them and fortunately for me, I have no strong desire to contact either Blu or Enth. I'm perfectly capable of recognizing the exchange wouldn't be productive. They did after all, try to dox my best friend.
And no, of course their response doesn't bode well with me, you didn't ask the the right motherflipping questions!

I really liked what you said next though:

"Of course they want nothing to do with this, right? They committed the crime, got away relatively scot-free, and are happily living out their wretched little lives.
Meanwhile, your good friend Alice2 is still suffering. Suffering that was brought on by their reprehensible acts.
They OUGHT to answer for it. They owe her an apology, if they truly do regret what they have done."

I honestly couldn't have described the situation better myself, though I'd leave out the last bit. It's abundantly clear to me neither of them regret what they've done.
And quite frankly, I don't expect anyone willing enough to collect and spread a dox to ALSO be willing to apologize for it. It's sort of a rule of thumb: if you would do something like that in the first place, chances are you're probably a completely unapologetic doorknob.

Dag is of course, the exception, both for apologizing and for being out of his mind at the time.
See, I'm not totally heartless. I see reason and I take it where I can get it.

But so far this entire ordeal has been so far removed from reasonable, even you are clearly clutching at straws.

Anyway, you could have certainly fudging fooled me regarding your sympathies on the matter, considering your prior behavior, justifications and statements. But for now, we'll say I trust and believe you, and that you truly do want what's best for everyone involved, including Alice.

I mean, i don't actually believe it, but I'll say it now for the narrative of this conversation.
And you HAVE been replying to me, and that does count for something.

As for considering the viewpoints of those involved, I already have! In fact I thought I demonstrated to you earlier why I believed those viewpoints to be INVALID. Feelings can be irrational, and propped up under exaggerated beliefs or outright lies or delusion.
I've already shown you some examples of this. In fact, I'm 100% willing to concede that some of their feelings on Alice are in fact perfectly reasonable responses. But I actually need tangible proof or some sort of explanation.

You mention further down that YOU believe their reasons aren't illusory, but you also fail to provide evidence for this belief (and no, the Kamina name change doesn't count, we'll get to that in a minute). I've provided evidence for every belief I've so far held about them. I haven't seen squat diddly to contradict that. And I'm literally ASKING to be contradicted.

But before we get into the name change, we gotta jump back to Blu (remember when I said we'd do that, it's happening right now how exciting) You see, I had initially thought, what with all the testimony and evidence, that Blu's recent doxxing surge in january was a result of her still being raw at alice (for the reasons I had shown you).

However! Fred was kind enough to share this gem for me:

https://i.imgur.com/FlQNezK.png

You can't quite see it, but that first bit is related to Fred asking if Mako and Enth had doxxed alice. Which is a bit of irony, because we of course know now that they had in fact done that.
So either Blu is covering for them, or she truly doesn't know. But considering her statements before that she "Wanted to see Alice burn", I'm gonna go out on a limb and say she probably did know. But you're free to disagree, that's purely guess-work on my part.

Well, that and the fact that she was probably one of the five that Rory had mentioned, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
let's forget her past involvement for a minute.

BY HER OWN WORDS, she did it out of mere curiosity.
And furthermore, she states that she doesn't feel sorry about it!

So either we accept your hypothesis that she felt so wronged by Alice that she felt compelled to lash out in one of the worst ways
-OR-
We accept her at her own words, and that she literally just did it out of boredom.

At best, she's a liar.
At worst, she's a piece of fudging bubblegum that doesn't give two fricks about the consequences of her actions.
Take your pick!


Anyway now that we got sweet Blu out of the way, let's focus on your next points.
The unmasking of Makoto.


First of all, I'd like to dismiss this notion that Kamina merely wanted to move on from his past and try to settle in with us as a changed person.
Kamina wasn't some pure innocent angel that we unfairly attacked over our "you can't ignore your past" outlook.

You see, Kamina certainly enjoyed the games they played with people.
Outside of the lying of course, there was the catfishing. Intentionally being provocative with male members of the chat for some sort of thrill.
I mean, you really can't get anymore blatant than this:

https://i.imgur.com/HN5TlVE.png

If we believe that Kamina was a pure innocent and truly was just looking for a fresh start, or that she didn't intend to hurt anyone...well...
The sub-level taunting about their true identity certainly flies in the face of that.

THEN there was accepting the car loan of 2000 dollars from Dag, whi ch is how this whole lie  was first unearthed. You see, Dag obviously had no idea who Makoto truly was, or his past history with the chat. I'd argue that this arrangement was made in bad faith, considering.

And this of course all ties back together to Kamina's past itself:

Hunter and Ezio, two members from 2011, directly accused Kamina of having an abusive relationship with Hunter when she was underaged.
Kamina has a history of such relationships.

The past is terribly important. And Kamina wanted to escape it with good reason.

So when you ask me to have some sort of sympathy for Kamina having her identity revealed, I'd also ask you to have some sympathy for the people that were wronged as a result of it for the charade's duration.
I don't give a good golly gosh about perceptions. You OWN what you did. You don't get to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
Kamina's concerns don't get to override the concerns of everyone else. There was much more at play than mere ideology.

And furthermore, there was nothing cruel about the way Alice handled this. If you would refer back to the "Shark Fin Soup" post, you would see that Alice had in fact, talked to them privately and gave them ample opportunity to come clean about the truth on their own terms. A gesture I believe to be way more than fair.
However they squandered the opportunity and refused. As a result, Alice changed a name.

So what are we left with now?

Let's do a quick recap! (it's not a parody of yours I swear.)

1.) Someone made a choice to lie about who they were.
2.) They exploited this new identity at the expense of others.
3.) When given the option to tell the truth on their own terms, they refused.
4.) The Truth was revealed. One -falsely- believed Alice used a dox; another -falsely- believed it was an anti-transgender tactic.
5.) They both conspired to hurt Alice, using an unmedicated alcoholic.
6.) Neither of them feel remorse over their actions.

I left out the bit where you said they had been wronged before and it had accumulated. You have yet to provide any evidence of that. so I'm throwing it right the heck out. Right into the garbage. Right in the Traesh.

Remind me again why you think Alice owes any of them an apology?
I'd ESPECIALLY like to hear why you think she owes Blu one.
In fact I'm quite unsure where this piece of the narrative came from exactly. This was supposed to be about you apologizing for saying something fudged up. You know, the whole "Alice2 deserved to be doxxed" thing.

Thus far you have not provided sufficient evidence for this statement to hold any merit, and I'm still expecting an apology.
You don't even need to give it to me, you can just directly send it to Alice. You know her email right?
As for the others apologizing to Alice, I can safely say I don't expect it.

Being willing to Dox someone doesn't exactly go hand in hand with the considerate, remorseful type. I already mentioned this.
However, I would actually like to believe you're better than that. You haven't doxxed anyone to my knowledge, so I'd expect you to be perfectly capable of apologizing.
Those two though? I ain't holding out much hope.

Now onward to the victim blaming point!

First of all it's not virtue signaling OR an attempt at character assassination. It's literally what you're doing. You fit the definition to an absolute T. I'm sure that sucks to hear and I'm sorry, I mean I'd feel pretty bad if someone accused me of it too. But I'm callin' it like I see it. Doesn't mean you're beyond redemption or whatever, I mean I am still expecting to hear an apology from you. I wouldn't be asking for one if I thought you were incapable of it.

Hoo boy.
Now I gotta admit I had a big grin on my face at this next part:

"There is a reason why victimology is a real field of study. Because matters of responsibility, accountability, crime, and victimhood are complex matters"

Now I don't know how much you know about me, but I actually have a couple degrees in criminal justice! I have a few courses of victimology under my belt.
However!
The great irony of that statement is that you don't even need to have an education in psychology or criminal justice to tell you that ur rong:

You see 2B, if you literally go to the Wikipedia definition of "Victim Blaming" you can literally just read the second sentence.

"The study of victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible."
(The source on that is the Journal of Interpersonal Violence. It's a peer-reviewed academic journal.)

Now I'll fully agree with you that victimology is a pretty complex area of study. Believe me, I spent a lot of sleepless nights on the subject. But I gotta tell you, victim blaming has no place in the field, outside of being something that needs to be corrected.

I could go further and tell you that you'd fit nicely into something called FAE (Fundamental Attribution Error), but I've been spending almost this entire time trying to convince you why your outlook is fallacious, so we'll just ignore that!

You say that there is culpability on both sides, but at some point you need to acknowledge that the scales are VASTLY shifted.
In fact, I still don't even really see anything she is truly culpable for. I mean I'm well aware she isn't a saint (she has terrible taste in music) but I mean, come on dude.
At SOME point you have to prove this to me. You need to TELL me what she did that was so wrong, at least something that I can't debunk right out of hand.

Also for the record, when she said "It's one I can live with" I'm pretty sure she wasn't expecting people she had known for years to do one of the most repugnant things you can do online. I certainly wasn't, and I'm a stone cold cynic. But I guess according to you we should always prepare for the worst from people. Out of everything you've impressed upon me, I'll be keeping that one in mind.
Because the worst is certainly what they tried to give her.

It is funny though, despite everything they tried to do to her: We never for one moment considered doxxing them in return.

Insolently yours,
-Kermit