[begin transmission]

Speaking of a few, select members at aneki...

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[begin transmission]

Goodbye, absolute control.

It was nice while it lasted. Almost made it an entire year.

But I suppose these types of things can't remain indefinitely hidden in the dark.

I wouldn't want them to anyway.

It was almost perfect timing. Can't have it all, I guess.

Edit: Welcome to my blog.

[end transmission]

[begin transmission]

Alice2,

As you’re probably well aware by now, Kermit, Fred, and I have been engaged in correspondence for the last two weeks or so.

The subject being my assertion that you deserved your doxing. Then we got side-tracked into ‘proving’ what grievances were real and which were unfounded.

But that’s besides the point. Right, so what is my point? I’ve come to realize that my original wording was poor.

You did not deserve what happened to you, Alice2. I’m sorry for being so callous and possibly hurting any feelings. Please accept my apology.

There’s a question of responsibility that remains unaddressed, but the answers appear to be contingent on personal belief and values.

I’ll continue to look into the matter myself; I’ve had a long-standing interest in morality, so I relish the opportunity to investigate for personal development.

Also, along with (hopefully) accepting my apology, I ask that you thank Kermit. Beneath that uncouth exterior lies someone of intelligence and great, upstanding character.

We certainly went our rounds and, although we disagree on a fair numbers of things, a better understanding was achieved. I think.

But besides that, he really went to bat for you. I can recognize a valuable, good friend when I see one. You’re very lucky.

-2B

[end transmission]

First Part


Well 2B, whatever conclusions you come to yourself regarding earned consequences and accountability and stuff?
You'll never have to worry about that kinda shit from me or Alice. It's a line we've pledged never to cross regardless of the circumstances.
After all, despite Nevada having doxxed me in TYF and threatening to E-mail my father falsely accusing me of distributing child pornography ( https://i.imgur.com/WJAwj5P.png )
The most I had ever planned on doing to him was sending a message to his parents informing them of what their son was doing.
Never planned anything cruel, never planned on spreading his own dox around. And thankfully it never had to come to even that last push.

The only request I have of you concerning them is that you consider their removal if they step over that line again.
And not just this current issue concerning Alice either. Doxxers make for very poor bedfellows.


Second Part


I understand where you're coming from. And I'm well aware that Alice isn't perfect, nobody is.
If you had mentioned Okuu perhaps, I would have conceded a notion that Alice had wronged someone in the past.
But as for Kaen and Mio, I don't take the word of liars into high consideration. As with Grey, I was actually there for the whole thing to unfold and I know him well enough to remark on what a piece of shit he was.
And with Lily, she never rumiated on anything that bad to begin with, and she's still around anyway.
For Muon? I simply never knew him or his circumstances well enough. But I know Alice well enough to believe she'd never at least intentionally hurt him.

As for owning the past, I'd like to believe we do. There is a reason we keep a record of so many logs. It's not just for the sake of other people, but for our own introspection.
To look back and consider if our decisions were wise or if we were just.
For instance, I wasn't the best person at the start of 2011. There are plenty of people who can attest to that. I had an awful reputation. But despite all that, I've kept my name. 
I know Alice has regrets too, who doesn't? But we own them as our own.
As for the talk between the two of you, I hope it goes as well as ours has. (Without the rocky start maybe)


Third Part


When I discuss victim blaming and victim responsibility, I do so in their legally defined terms.
As it stands by law, Victims aren't held to blame for their own victimization. You could argue in the terms of a provocation defense, but even that only serves to mitigate the punishment the perpetrator might receive.
And even then, that argument is under heavy debate. With very good reason.

And as I've hopefully demonstrated to you earlier, I don't believe Alice provoked them enough to warrant the actions they took.
Not only that, but their previously stated reasons for doing so have been shown to be based on faulty assumptions.
We need to hold people to a higher standard, especially when the consequences can be dire.
I believe the moment we start holding victims to account for their own victimization, we open a door that should remain closed.
After all, we have current examples of what that can lead to in the extreme. Honor killings for raped women, etc.

Precipitation? That's fair enough.
Responsibility? That's a whole other can of worms.

Furthermore, I'm glad you've done the research. I can't say I know many people that pay it much mind.


Final Part


Thank you, 2B.
I wouldn't ask or expect anything more.
I'll leave it to you and Alice to work these things out. Maybe she can argue about the burden of responsibility better than I can.
But at the very least I'm glad you're thinking about it. The world would benefit from more people with that sort of attitude.

Happy Easter to you too.

(Also If this whole thing was an April Fools joke I'm gonna be so pissed)

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

------'Ta(l)king it out' & Direct Statements------

I appreciate that, Kermit. But I’m still unresolved as to whether I deserved it or not.
Maybe I’m too severe on my own accountability and as a consequence I’m too severe on others for their own.
That’s not something for us to discuss and get to the bottom of. That’s for me to ruminate on.
Thanks to our conversation, I have new information to help me reevaluate on a personal level.

Concerning those three…well, there isn’t much else to be said.
I’m glad that daggy and Alice2 are no longer in contact, and that it was a mutual agreement. It really is for the best.
As far as Yui and Anya/Mako are involved, there’s no choice but to let them be with their terrible little selves.
I can’t control what they say or do outside of my Discord server, but in? You don’t have to worry about any conspiracy there.

And of course, I’m willing to approach them on personal grounds, if that is requested.


------Alice2's Behavior & Company------

I was aware of their backgrounds and have taken them into consideration; I’m not putting them beyond the ability to do shameful things.
It’s only the same repeat grievance that I’ve heard which is alarming. And honestly, it really is hard to delineate and distribute fault here.
I’m sure that some of that resentment towards Alice2 was fueled by their invalid emotions based off of faulty presuppositions. But I can’t dismiss it all.
Simply put, I knew some of those people. And there was more to them than irrationality and dishonesty. But they’re no longer around, so it doesn’t matter.

You know, considering the ideological tenets anekichat holds, of owning your past, I don’t doubt that Alice2 has examined and re-examined her past treatment of others.
Has it been enough though? I’d hate to make it seem as if Alice2 has to answer to me, because I hate impinging on the sovereignty of others. But I still have my doubts.

Time will tell, I suppose. As will a little talk with the woman herself.


-----Apology------

Thank you.


------- ‘Alice2 precipitated her own doxing’-------

To clarify, I don’t think that my victim blaming was driven by BJW. I’m well-aware of and accept that tragedy befalls even the innocent, and that sometimes the bad guys get away with their deeds.
Not to say that your assertion that BJW drives victim blaming behavior in some individuals is incorrect; that’s exactly what was demonstrated in Dalbert, 2009 and Lerner & Miller, 1978.
But the paper you linked me to states that it may be moral values (i.e. individualizing values and binding values) that reflects the 'truer’ propensity to blame the victim.
That was the take-home message of the paper. Not that victim blaming behavior was driven by a failure to empathize or a fear response.

And that’s what I’m suspecting is the case here. It’s a question of difference in moral values. The paper clearly outlines that people that place more emphasis on binding values tend to be conservative.
These days, I certainly do consider myself a moderate. I don’t agree with a lot of the ‘progressive’ values being pushed over the last two decades or so.
I’m particularly interested in seeing what Duarte 2009 and Haslam 2016 has to say on the matters of accountability. ‘…society is on a slippery slope towards low accountability and victim culture.’ Resonant.
This ties back to when you pointed out the second sentence on Wikipedia about victim blaming, that victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible…I was dumbfounded.

It suggests that one cannot even posit the idea that victims share PARTIAL responsibility in the matter. And that’s evidence of the disproportional amount of representation of liberal values in the field.
I’m really glad we had this conversation, Kermit. Because it opened up all sorts of avenues of investigation. I don’t know how you feel after our interactions, but I learned a fair amount.

Now then, about that apology to Alice2. I’ll draft one this week.
I can apologize for asserting that she deserved it. It was too harsh of wording and unfair of me.
That being said though, I cannot apologize for holding the belief that she is, in some form, partially responsible for it. I’m not willing to cede that; it would be disingenuous to do so.
But I can apologize for saying the wrong thing, and for perhaps hurting her feelings as a consequence.

Happy Easter.

-2B


P.S. April Fools.

[end transmission]

Hey, I like the way you've structured things. It's efficient
Hope you don't mind if I borrow your technique.


------Priming------

Priming doesn't have to be an new concept or idea to the person you're asking. It's a method of framing a certain question to elicit a certain response.
I've already explained what it is, so I'm not gonna repeat myself. But hey, I'll drop it if you insist. There are bigger discussions worth having.

------'Taking it out'------

Well 2B, I don't know what to say here. I don't believe you deserved to be doxxed, for one thing.
I don't believe doxxing is a price someone should have to pay for "arrogance". Now maybe you could argue you precipitated your own doxxing somehow, but I'd never say you deserved or even earned it.
Though granted, my knowledge of that entire ordeal is fairly limited. I still would like to believe it wasn't deserved.

Also 3 months is fucking nothing, want to know what real nauseating shit is? A year and 3 months.The only reason it's an issue again is because Blu is holding a grudge propped up by paranoid delusions and Dag was doing the same thing only fueled by liquor and schizophrenia

"I don’t think it was wrong of me to assume that Alice2 would try to talk it out with them after. She’s capable. Did I expect too much?"
As you've already proven, none of them are particularly keen on talking to her.
Dag bounces back and forth depending on his anxiety, but Alice decided it best to cut him out of her life, which I can't fault her for.
Blu gave a half-assed apology and then left immediately. Before that she reached out to Alice in an Email calling her a man and generally just being an asshole.
To my knowledge, Enth and Mako blocked out communications. And the following year I saw them talking shit about Alice, calling her a cult leader. The proof of which I sent you a long while ago.



------Direct Statements-------

It's not nonsense, 2B. It's actually pretty damned important. I would in fact really like to know what other justifications they have. I assumed that you would too.
And I'd say they sure as fuck need to apologize for crossing a line that should never be crossed. But yes much like you, I don't expect it from them either.

Also that's not how this works, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim! It's not alice's or my responsibility to try to refute a 'feeling' sentiment. I need fucking statements to work with here.
And as I've previously stated, Alice hasn't exactly been in any position to talk it out with them.

------Dichotomy-------

You're absolutely right here, I conflated curiosity with boredom, that's on me.
And I absolutely believe it to be rooted in malice, given her statements before, during and after the fact:
Before: "I want to watch Alice Burn"
During: "I want to expose Alice for the man that he is"
After: "I'm not sorry."
I'm also basing this on her general personality. Again, this is an issue she brought up almost a year after the fact. She is a spiteful hateful fucking person.

-----The Screenshot------

We agree here too, she is extremely sensitive.
I think it's entirely likely Alice would have apologized to her if Blu handled the situation like an adult. For instance, messaging Alice personally and saying "Hey what you said to me earlier really hurt my feelings, can we talk about it?" Instead what happened is she let it fester inside of her, and lashed out when an opportunity presented itself.
You can't fault Alice for not being a mind reader.


------Alice2's Behavior------


I am familiar with all of those names, though a few of them are from before my time. I didn't join alice's chat until the tail end of 2011. It doesn't surprise me they've echoed the same sentiment of mistreatment though.
.I mean, you should know too. You used to run help threads.

Running help threads makes you a target, and draws in fucked up emotionally damaged people from 4chan. I know you've had experience with a doxxer, a blackbox spammer (who turned out to be nevada by the way https://i.imgur.com/YTIAzmI.png dunno if nep told you), Fenn,  and...Esdeath. Who I've heard some pretty interesting things about.
And I'm sure that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Anyway my point is, most of the people you've mentioned fit neatly into that category.

I can talk about them one by one, in fact.

------Kaen-------

A Catfish. Not a transgirl or anything like that, literally just a dude pretending to be a teen girl.
Here's a picture of him: https://i.imgur.com/24YRi5V.jpg (please try to ignore the fucking tenga and onahole on his shelf). Kaen was a bit before my time, he left around when I was just coming in, late 2011.

However I've asked Alice personally about him in the past, and just now recently to refresh my memory:
Alice entered a relationship with Kaen. He was outed as a man. He continually fucked with her, including running a doxxing campaign with Chen aimed at alice.
Then he grows a conscience, apologizes to Alice over and over again for how he treated her, and then he presumebly fucked off to some hole somewhere.

If that isn't sufficient, I asked Jan and Boss what they remembered about him https://i.imgur.com/Of4F9e0.png / https://i.imgur.com/6uEJXvt.png

I hope that's enough to safely dismiss whatever bullshit he's peddled in the past.

-----Muon-----

Muon is a bit of a curve ball for me, but from what I recall I resented Alice2 because he had some weird love obsession with Alice1.
You'd have to ask for Alice about that one.


----Mio------

Mio was yet again another catfish. Here's the picture he claimed was him: https://i.imgur.com/6q6qh8w.png (spoilers that's not actually him)
Alice and him entered in a relationship sometime around 2012/2013.
https://i.imgur.com/hzNPwYV.png
The sad irony of course was that he ended up cheating on her.
Here's some of my logs from back in the day: https://pastebin.com/LxRYSZL4

Of course there's only Alice's word to go on here, but considering those are logs from AT the time, I'd hope they'd be valid enough.

------Grey------

Grey is probably the most infamous one on here considering he's the one that started that "Alice Lied" doxxing blog.

Even before that situation came to a head, everyone always thought Gray was an insufferable smug cunt. His particular story?

He had feelings for Alice
She didn't return them
he looked into the paypal
He thought it was Alice
he lost his goddamn mind (just like Blu did.)

I mean if you ever read the old blog (before most of it got taken down for violating TOS) it's pretty obvious. I could go on ad nauseum about Grey. I have plenty of records about him. If you're interested I'd be happy to send them to you.

------Lily------

Lily is by far the most innocent person on this list. The most she's guilty of is voicing grievances about an alleged relationship she had with Alice.
Alice for the record, has denied such a relationship has ever existed, for literally as I've known her.

There also isn't any active resentment. She pops into the chat from time to time and her and Alice are very cordial with one another.
Lily also has a few mental health problems, and her perception of reality isn't always 100%. She's still a nice person though and I truly believe she means well.


-----Apology------

Thank you for apologizing.
I know I've said some shitty things to you in the past as well, so for what it's worth, I apologize for those remarks.


------- ‘Alice2 precipitated her own doxing’-------

I'd be happy to define and discuss victim blaming!
Victim blaming is a by-product of something known as the "Just World Hypothesis." It's a fallacious contention that all actions and reactions are inherently fitting consequences. I'm sure you're familiar with it; it has a lot in line with the notion of karmic justice. All good is rewarded, all evil is punished, that sort of thing. It's a justification used by perpetrators of crimes and victims of crimes and also plays a role into the bystander effect.
Some loose examples are "I'm justified in my actions because this person was weak enough to let it happen" , "I deserve this because I was alone at night" and "They probably deserved it anyway" respectively.
Basically it's the idea that people deserve what happens to them. In fact it's a pretty common reaction to crime; the idea that something bad can happen to undeserving people is a frightening prospect. It implants the idea that anyone can become a victim at any time. For the average person, It's a sort of defense mechanism. "It won't happen to me because I'm careful." This is known as Invulnerability Theory.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/opinion/sunday/who-blames-the-victim.html
^ Here's a good discussion of it
http://moralitylab.bc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/NiemiYoung_2016-1.pdf
^ And the actual scholarly article itself

It essentially concludes that victim blaming is a combination of failure to empathize with the victim and a fear-reaction, as I've discussed earlier.

To answer your next question, yes. indicating that a victim is partially responsible for what befell them is in fact victim blaming. It's a core component of fundamental attribution error. Personal characteristics are overemphasized while external and environmental characteristics are devalued. An example: "Alice deserved to be doxxed because of her carelessness and behavior". External factors involving the perpetrators, and the environmental characteristics involving the nature and reason of the dox are devalued proportionally.

Now I fully agree, you shouldn't leave your doors unlocked, you shouldn't wear revealing clothes alone at night, you shouldn't engage in risky behavior, etc etc etc.
It completely falls in line with what you said earlier: those are all -precipitating- a crime. But it absolutely does not mean you are -responsible- for being the victim of a crime.
And it especially doesn't mean that you deserved to have it happen to you.

The responsibility of the crime SOLELY lies on the perpetrator, regardless of how careless the victim was. The western justice systems thankfully operates on this principle.
It works in a way that doesn't hold a victim responsible for their own victimization.

After all, we don't operate on fucking sharia law.

Alice has no responsibility for her own victimization.
She didn't "deserve" it either.
The only valid statement so far in, is that she precipitated her victimization by using a paypal email linked to a personal friend of hers.
And of course, operating in a high risk area.

Beyond that, I don't believe she's done anything else to precipitate her victimization.
She's the target of people with invalid justifications, stemming from a fair and just decision she made over a year ago.

As for the last part, believe me. I've been trying to convince Alice to quit doing threads for years, citing this exact reason. /b/ is a fucked up place, full of fucked up people. I think we can agree on that front at least.


---------Concluding Remarks---------


As stated before, Alice would be 100% willing to apologize for any injustice she's inflicted on anyone.
But the thing is, she actually needs to know what that injustice is. Since those involved aren't going to give you specifics, I'm afraid I'm just going to have to conclude that whatever other justification they had for their actions is invalid. I have no doubt that they feel bitter and angry, but as we've discussed before: "Feels ain't always reals."

And on the other front, I would still like an apology from you for Alice.
By this point you've changed the phrasing and general idea of what you said in the first place by saying it was "precipitated" rather than deserved.
So I don't think it's that much more of a step just to distance yourself from the wording entirely and apologize.

[begin transmission]

Kermit,

------- Priming -------

I still don’t see what your concern is over priming.
Those three already believe Alice2 wronged them and that they deserve an apology. I wasn’t introducing some new idea to them.
Besides the truth value of whether Alice2 has something to apologize for has no bearing on whether or not they’d be willing to talk to her.
It wasn’t dishonest. I clearly stated a hypothetical. So I’m not going to address this nitpick any further, it’s distracting from the main issues.


------- ‘Talking it out’ -------

In response to my statement:
It’s funny that you bring up my own doxing. I was just reflecting about that the other night.
I actually believe that I did deserve that. Was that anon’s actions justified? No, not really. But I can admit that I was arrogant and subsequently paid the price for it.
Moreover, I approached the anon directly and handled it discretely; I didn’t rope in an entire community to share in my misery. I didn’t let it spread to other communities either.
Within two weeks it had become old news and forgotten. That’s how you properly handle such things How long has this affair been going on now? Three months? It’s nauseating.

Fred wrote this in one of his emails:

Moreover, as you pointed out about confronting people before it got "out of hand," I don't believe the intent was to intimidate Alice or to get something out of her. If that was the case, it would have been posted on 4chan or linked specifically to her. Rather than this, it was linked specifically to people who have displayed a history of aggression towards Alice, with no history of being "wronged." Because of this, handling this discretely and quickly wasn't possible, and though attempts were made to try and handle it, they bore no fruit.

So I had assumed that there was some dialogue between Alice2 and Yui/Anya/daggy, after the doxing had occurred.
I don’t think it was wrong of me to assume that Alice2 would try to talk it out with them after. She’s capable. Did I expect too much?


------- Direct Statements -------

It’s only off of the table because I refuse to get them involved in anymore of this nonsense, and I’m not going to force them.
You maintain that they don’t want to be involved because they did they crime and got away with it, and that they can’t justify their grievances.
I’ll grant you that not all of their complaints are necessarily valid. You’ve shown me a few. But it cannot be conclusively said that all of them are invalid, when some of them are unknown.
Hence, those involved need to discuss it with each other, to resolve all this.

I’m of the mind that they’ve tried to talk out past issues with Alice2 before, and generally know how it plays out. They believe it to be a waste of time.
A reasonable theory, given what Fred said (above) and their reluctance to participate. Maybe this sentiment will fade with time, I don’t know.
That being said, it hammers home the extraordinarily low likelihood of a satisfactory resolution right now, given how people are.
Like I said before, there is no need for apologies. From anyone.



------- Dichotomy -------

That’s just a difference in the interpretation of human nature, then.
Correction though: she said ‘curiosity’. Not exactly the same thing as boredom.
It isn’t very hard at all to imagine someone being curious about someone else’s identity, digging up info, and then doxing them out of revenge once they were hurt.
So the two are fairly compatible, I’d say. But, if you truly think her to be that treacherous, I could see why you’d think it was out of pure malice.


------- The Screenshot -------

I do have my reservations about her character, but I have reservations about everyone’s character. She’s been behaving.
A lot of what you said about the screenshot I’m in agreement with, except for one thing. I do get the sense that she is particularly sensitive.
As much as I want to criticize Alice2, I cannot. As you can imagine, I have difficulty not stepping on toes too hard.
I know what it’s like; no matter how neutral or even ‘gentle’ as you might frame it, sometimes people take offense regardless.

Occasionally, people give apologies for hurting feelings though, despite not technically doing anything wrong.
Not sure if Alice2 is that type of person.


------- Alice2’s Behavior -------

Right, so when Yui stated her thought process, that “it must be my fault” in the screenshot, it sort of raised a red flag. Gaslighting.
I’m not saying this as a personal attack on Alice2. Understand that. It’s a genuine concern of mine and leads me to believe that there has to be some sort of behavioral change.
But I’ve seen this same sentiment echoed by the likes of Kaen, muon, Mio, gray, and Lily. Fairly old names, I know. Maybe Alice2 had changed since then? I want to believe that.
Yet I’m still seeing the same type of complaints, years later, from people around.

I do have evidence of this, but I think I’ll take it up with Alice2 herself, if you don’t mind.
I’m sure you’ve heard about these kinds of complaints before though. Your thoughts?


------- Apology to you -------

Sorry for that catty remark, about not caring for anyone else’s suffering other than Alice2’s. It was out of line.


------- ‘Alice2 precipitated her own doxing’-------

Could you define for me what victim blaming is? Something a little more substantial than what Wikipedia has to offer, preferably.
Though I modified my original statement, something doesn’t quite sit right at all with me…
You see Kermit, I’m of the mind that people should be held accountable for their actions and their consequences. No exceptions.
This is called responsibility. Apparently, if you indicate that a victim may be partially responsible, that’s victim blaming?

Seems to me like ‘the victim is always right’ manner of thinking. Are they to be absolved of all responsibility, no matter the circumstances?
That just doesn’t seem right at all. Provoking is a thing. It might be covered under Victim Precipitation Theory, but my understanding of it is that I cannot make a ‘responsibility’ claim.
I’m curious to know what you think Alice2’s responsibility is, as far as her involvement in this doxing is concerned. Is there any on her part?
Perhaps even more so, what her responsibility is in terms of conduct when it comes to people of vulnerable populations?


------- Concluding remarks -------

It’s been twenty-something emails, and we didn’t manage to neatly wrap-up what Alice2 should apologize for.
And that wasn’t even the original objective: the original objective is my answering for my assertion that ‘Alice2 deserved the dox’.
In the first case, I wasn’t expecting resolution. But, at the very least there is a better-informed understanding. Not a complete waste of time.
Second case…still in the works.

-2B

[end transmission]