Hello
2B!
In the interest of keeping this conversation civil I've replaced my usual vulgarity and expletives with safe for work language.
I hope this is easier to digest for you.
Now where do I begin with this gosh darned mess? Let's just take things point by point!
Ok so first off, the original question was "what did Alice do to Enth, Blu and Dag".
You even acknowledged this in your silly little opening.
However, that is not the question you asked!
"Would you accept Alice's apology" is a pretty radically different question. Pretty loaded too!
You see, the question is already assuming Alice has something to personally apologize to them for.
It's pretty different from the entirely neutral question of "Why are you upset with Alice" or (the less neutral but still acceptable) "What did she do to make you act this way."
In fact, as I'm sure you're well aware, this tactic is known as "Priming".
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/weekinreview/28sussman.html
You primed them people a certain way by asking that specific question with that specific wording.
It's quite intellectually dishonest.
But regardless let's go down the list:
Enth's "No" isn't much to go on. Maybe if you had asked "why not", or "why do you feel that way", we could have gotten an answer that I could work with. But oh well.
Dag is actually the wild card here, he's recently given me a statement that runs directly contrary to the narrative you're weaving for him here, but I gave him my word I wouldn't share what exactly he told me.
However, he did tell me that he would be talking to you about his feelings on the matter personally, so keep an eye out for him. it's part of the reason why my reply has been delayed.
Now Blu over here, she sure is a piece of something isn't she?
I would like to point out that she told us to "get over something that happened almost 3 months ago." The irony of course being the fact that she decided to Dox Alice about a full year after she had left the chat.
It's funny to me how that works. She also mentioned something about how Alice needed to message her? She is of course, completely capable of messaging Alice herself. In fact, in their last E-mail exchange, Blu abruptly stopped talking to her.
Ball is totally in her court there.
We'll get back to Blu later on though, I'm not quite finished with that sweet little cupcake yet!
You see, fortunately for them and fortunately for me, I have no strong desire to contact either Blu or Enth. I'm perfectly capable of recognizing the exchange wouldn't be productive. They did after all, try to dox my best friend.
And no, of course their response doesn't bode well with me, you didn't ask the the right motherflipping questions!
I really liked what you said next though:
"Of course they want nothing to do with this, right? They committed the crime, got away relatively scot-free, and are happily living out their wretched little lives.
Meanwhile, your good friend Alice2 is still suffering. Suffering that was brought on by their reprehensible acts.
They OUGHT to answer for it. They owe her an apology, if they truly do regret what they have done."
I honestly couldn't have described the situation better myself, though I'd leave out the last bit. It's abundantly clear to me neither of them regret what they've done.
And quite frankly, I don't expect anyone willing enough to collect and spread a dox to ALSO be willing to apologize for it. It's sort of a rule of thumb: if you would do something like that in the first place, chances are you're probably a completely unapologetic doorknob.
Dag is of course, the exception, both for apologizing and for being out of his mind at the time.
See, I'm not totally heartless. I see reason and I take it where I can get it.
But so far this entire ordeal has been so far removed from reasonable, even you are clearly clutching at straws.
Anyway, you could have certainly fudging fooled me regarding your sympathies on the matter, considering your prior behavior, justifications and statements. But for now, we'll say I trust and believe you, and that you truly do want what's best for everyone involved, including Alice.
I mean, i don't actually believe it, but I'll say it now for the narrative of this conversation.
And you HAVE been replying to me, and that does count for something.
As for considering the viewpoints of those involved, I already have! In fact I thought I demonstrated to you earlier why I believed those viewpoints to be INVALID. Feelings can be irrational, and propped up under exaggerated beliefs or outright lies or delusion.
I've already shown you some examples of this. In fact, I'm 100% willing to concede that some of their feelings on Alice are in fact perfectly reasonable responses. But I actually need tangible proof or some sort of explanation.
You mention further down that YOU believe their reasons aren't illusory, but you also fail to provide evidence for this belief (and no, the Kamina name change doesn't count, we'll get to that in a minute). I've provided evidence for every belief I've so far held about them. I haven't seen squat diddly to contradict that. And I'm literally ASKING to be contradicted.
But before we get into the name change, we gotta jump back to Blu (remember when I said we'd do that, it's happening right now how exciting) You see, I had initially thought, what with all the testimony and evidence, that Blu's recent doxxing surge in january was a result of her still being raw at alice (for the reasons I had shown you).
However! Fred was kind enough to share this gem for me:
https://i.imgur.com/FlQNezK.png
You can't quite see it, but that first bit is related to Fred asking if Mako and Enth had doxxed alice. Which is a bit of irony, because we of course know now that they had in fact done that.
So either Blu is covering for them, or she truly doesn't know. But considering her statements before that she "Wanted to see Alice burn", I'm gonna go out on a limb and say she probably did know. But you're free to disagree, that's purely guess-work on my part.
Well, that and the fact that she was probably one of the five that Rory had mentioned, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
let's forget her past involvement for a minute.
BY HER OWN WORDS, she did it out of mere curiosity.
And furthermore, she states that she doesn't feel sorry about it!
So either we accept your hypothesis that she felt so wronged by Alice that she felt compelled to lash out in one of the worst ways
-OR-
We accept her at her own words, and that she literally just did it out of boredom.
At best, she's a liar.
At worst, she's a piece of fudging bubblegum that doesn't give two fricks about the consequences of her actions.
Take your pick!
Anyway now that we got sweet Blu out of the way, let's focus on your next points.
The unmasking of Makoto.
First of all, I'd like to dismiss this notion that Kamina merely wanted to move on from his past and try to settle in with us as a changed person.
Kamina wasn't some pure innocent angel that we unfairly attacked over our "you can't ignore your past" outlook.
You see, Kamina certainly enjoyed the games they played with people.
Outside of the lying of course, there was the catfishing. Intentionally being provocative with male members of the chat for some sort of thrill.
I mean, you really can't get anymore blatant than this:
https://i.imgur.com/HN5TlVE.png
If we believe that Kamina was a pure innocent and truly was just looking for a fresh start, or that she didn't intend to hurt anyone...well...
The sub-level taunting about their true identity certainly flies in the face of that.
THEN there was accepting the car loan of 2000 dollars from Dag, whi ch is how this whole lie was first unearthed. You see, Dag obviously had no idea who Makoto truly was, or his past history with the chat. I'd argue that this arrangement was made in bad faith, considering.
And this of course all ties back together to Kamina's past itself:
Hunter and Ezio, two members from 2011, directly accused Kamina of having an abusive relationship with Hunter when she was underaged.
Kamina has a history of such relationships.
The past is terribly important. And Kamina wanted to escape it with good reason.
So when you ask me to have some sort of sympathy for Kamina having her identity revealed, I'd also ask you to have some sympathy for the people that were wronged as a result of it for the charade's duration.
I don't give a good golly gosh about perceptions. You OWN what you did. You don't get to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
Kamina's concerns don't get to override the concerns of everyone else. There was much more at play than mere ideology.
And furthermore, there was nothing cruel about the way Alice handled this. If you would refer back to the "Shark Fin Soup" post, you would see that Alice had in fact, talked to them privately and gave them ample opportunity to come clean about the truth on their own terms. A gesture I believe to be way more than fair.
However they squandered the opportunity and refused. As a result, Alice changed a name.
So what are we left with now?
Let's do a quick recap! (it's not a parody of yours I swear.)
1.) Someone made a choice to lie about who they were.
2.) They exploited this new identity at the expense of others.
3.) When given the option to tell the truth on their own terms, they refused.
4.) The Truth was revealed. One -falsely- believed Alice used a dox; another -falsely- believed it was an anti-transgender tactic.
5.) They both conspired to hurt Alice, using an unmedicated alcoholic.
6.) Neither of them feel remorse over their actions.
I left out the bit where you said they had been wronged before and it had accumulated. You have yet to provide any evidence of that. so I'm throwing it right the heck out. Right into the garbage. Right in the Traesh.
Remind me again why you think Alice owes any of them an apology?
I'd ESPECIALLY like to hear why you think she owes Blu one.
In fact I'm quite unsure where this piece of the narrative came from exactly. This was supposed to be about you apologizing for saying something fudged up. You know, the whole "Alice2 deserved to be doxxed" thing.
Thus far you have not provided sufficient evidence for this statement to hold any merit, and I'm still expecting an apology.
You don't even need to give it to me, you can just directly send it to Alice. You know her email right?
As for the others apologizing to Alice, I can safely say I don't expect it.
Being willing to Dox someone doesn't exactly go hand in hand with the considerate, remorseful type. I already mentioned this.
However, I would actually like to believe you're better than that. You haven't doxxed anyone to my knowledge, so I'd expect you to be perfectly capable of apologizing.
Those two though? I ain't holding out much hope.
Now onward to the victim blaming point!
First of all it's not virtue signaling OR an attempt at character assassination. It's literally what you're doing. You fit the definition to an absolute T. I'm sure that sucks to hear and I'm sorry, I mean I'd feel pretty bad if someone accused me of it too. But I'm callin' it like I see it. Doesn't mean you're beyond redemption or whatever, I mean I am still expecting to hear an apology from you. I wouldn't be asking for one if I thought you were incapable of it.
Hoo boy.
Now I gotta admit I had a big grin on my face at this next part:
"There is a reason why victimology is a real field of study. Because matters of responsibility, accountability, crime, and victimhood are complex matters"
Now I don't know how much you know about me, but I actually have a couple degrees in criminal justice! I have a few courses of victimology under my belt.
However!
The great irony of that statement is that you don't even need to have an education in psychology or criminal justice to tell you that ur rong:
You see 2B, if you literally go to the Wikipedia definition of "Victim Blaming" you can literally just read the second sentence.
"The study of victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible."
(The source on that is the Journal of Interpersonal Violence. It's a peer-reviewed academic journal.)
Now I'll fully agree with you that victimology is a pretty complex area of study. Believe me, I spent a lot of sleepless nights on the subject. But I gotta tell you, victim blaming has no place in the field, outside of being something that needs to be corrected.
I could go further and tell you that you'd fit nicely into something called FAE (Fundamental Attribution Error), but I've been spending almost this entire time trying to convince you why your outlook is fallacious, so we'll just ignore that!
You say that there is culpability on both sides, but at some point you need to acknowledge that the scales are VASTLY shifted.
In fact, I still don't even really see anything she is truly culpable for. I mean I'm well aware she isn't a saint (she has terrible taste in music) but I mean, come on dude.
At SOME point you have to prove this to me. You need to TELL me what she did that was so wrong, at least something that I can't debunk right out of hand.
Also for the record, when she said "It's one I can live with" I'm pretty sure she wasn't expecting people she had known for years to do one of the most repugnant things you can do online. I certainly wasn't, and I'm a stone cold cynic. But I guess according to you we should always prepare for the worst from people. Out of everything you've impressed upon me, I'll be keeping that one in mind.
Because the worst is certainly what they tried to give her.
It is funny though, despite everything they tried to do to her: We never for one moment considered doxxing them in return.
Insolently yours,
-Kermit
In the interest of keeping this conversation civil I've replaced my usual vulgarity and expletives with safe for work language.
I hope this is easier to digest for you.
Now where do I begin with this gosh darned mess? Let's just take things point by point!
Ok so first off, the original question was "what did Alice do to Enth, Blu and Dag".
You even acknowledged this in your silly little opening.
However, that is not the question you asked!
"Would you accept Alice's apology" is a pretty radically different question. Pretty loaded too!
You see, the question is already assuming Alice has something to personally apologize to them for.
It's pretty different from the entirely neutral question of "Why are you upset with Alice" or (the less neutral but still acceptable) "What did she do to make you act this way."
In fact, as I'm sure you're well aware, this tactic is known as "Priming".
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/weekinreview/28sussman.html
You primed them people a certain way by asking that specific question with that specific wording.
It's quite intellectually dishonest.
But regardless let's go down the list:
Enth's "No" isn't much to go on. Maybe if you had asked "why not", or "why do you feel that way", we could have gotten an answer that I could work with. But oh well.
Dag is actually the wild card here, he's recently given me a statement that runs directly contrary to the narrative you're weaving for him here, but I gave him my word I wouldn't share what exactly he told me.
However, he did tell me that he would be talking to you about his feelings on the matter personally, so keep an eye out for him. it's part of the reason why my reply has been delayed.
Now Blu over here, she sure is a piece of something isn't she?
I would like to point out that she told us to "get over something that happened almost 3 months ago." The irony of course being the fact that she decided to Dox Alice about a full year after she had left the chat.
It's funny to me how that works. She also mentioned something about how Alice needed to message her? She is of course, completely capable of messaging Alice herself. In fact, in their last E-mail exchange, Blu abruptly stopped talking to her.
Ball is totally in her court there.
We'll get back to Blu later on though, I'm not quite finished with that sweet little cupcake yet!
You see, fortunately for them and fortunately for me, I have no strong desire to contact either Blu or Enth. I'm perfectly capable of recognizing the exchange wouldn't be productive. They did after all, try to dox my best friend.
And no, of course their response doesn't bode well with me, you didn't ask the the right motherflipping questions!
I really liked what you said next though:
"Of course they want nothing to do with this, right? They committed the crime, got away relatively scot-free, and are happily living out their wretched little lives.
Meanwhile, your good friend Alice2 is still suffering. Suffering that was brought on by their reprehensible acts.
They OUGHT to answer for it. They owe her an apology, if they truly do regret what they have done."
I honestly couldn't have described the situation better myself, though I'd leave out the last bit. It's abundantly clear to me neither of them regret what they've done.
And quite frankly, I don't expect anyone willing enough to collect and spread a dox to ALSO be willing to apologize for it. It's sort of a rule of thumb: if you would do something like that in the first place, chances are you're probably a completely unapologetic doorknob.
Dag is of course, the exception, both for apologizing and for being out of his mind at the time.
See, I'm not totally heartless. I see reason and I take it where I can get it.
But so far this entire ordeal has been so far removed from reasonable, even you are clearly clutching at straws.
Anyway, you could have certainly fudging fooled me regarding your sympathies on the matter, considering your prior behavior, justifications and statements. But for now, we'll say I trust and believe you, and that you truly do want what's best for everyone involved, including Alice.
I mean, i don't actually believe it, but I'll say it now for the narrative of this conversation.
And you HAVE been replying to me, and that does count for something.
As for considering the viewpoints of those involved, I already have! In fact I thought I demonstrated to you earlier why I believed those viewpoints to be INVALID. Feelings can be irrational, and propped up under exaggerated beliefs or outright lies or delusion.
I've already shown you some examples of this. In fact, I'm 100% willing to concede that some of their feelings on Alice are in fact perfectly reasonable responses. But I actually need tangible proof or some sort of explanation.
You mention further down that YOU believe their reasons aren't illusory, but you also fail to provide evidence for this belief (and no, the Kamina name change doesn't count, we'll get to that in a minute). I've provided evidence for every belief I've so far held about them. I haven't seen squat diddly to contradict that. And I'm literally ASKING to be contradicted.
But before we get into the name change, we gotta jump back to Blu (remember when I said we'd do that, it's happening right now how exciting) You see, I had initially thought, what with all the testimony and evidence, that Blu's recent doxxing surge in january was a result of her still being raw at alice (for the reasons I had shown you).
However! Fred was kind enough to share this gem for me:
https://i.imgur.com/FlQNezK.png
You can't quite see it, but that first bit is related to Fred asking if Mako and Enth had doxxed alice. Which is a bit of irony, because we of course know now that they had in fact done that.
So either Blu is covering for them, or she truly doesn't know. But considering her statements before that she "Wanted to see Alice burn", I'm gonna go out on a limb and say she probably did know. But you're free to disagree, that's purely guess-work on my part.
Well, that and the fact that she was probably one of the five that Rory had mentioned, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
let's forget her past involvement for a minute.
BY HER OWN WORDS, she did it out of mere curiosity.
And furthermore, she states that she doesn't feel sorry about it!
So either we accept your hypothesis that she felt so wronged by Alice that she felt compelled to lash out in one of the worst ways
-OR-
We accept her at her own words, and that she literally just did it out of boredom.
At best, she's a liar.
At worst, she's a piece of fudging bubblegum that doesn't give two fricks about the consequences of her actions.
Take your pick!
Anyway now that we got sweet Blu out of the way, let's focus on your next points.
The unmasking of Makoto.
First of all, I'd like to dismiss this notion that Kamina merely wanted to move on from his past and try to settle in with us as a changed person.
Kamina wasn't some pure innocent angel that we unfairly attacked over our "you can't ignore your past" outlook.
You see, Kamina certainly enjoyed the games they played with people.
Outside of the lying of course, there was the catfishing. Intentionally being provocative with male members of the chat for some sort of thrill.
I mean, you really can't get anymore blatant than this:
https://i.imgur.com/HN5TlVE.png
If we believe that Kamina was a pure innocent and truly was just looking for a fresh start, or that she didn't intend to hurt anyone...well...
The sub-level taunting about their true identity certainly flies in the face of that.
THEN there was accepting the car loan of 2000 dollars from Dag, whi ch is how this whole lie was first unearthed. You see, Dag obviously had no idea who Makoto truly was, or his past history with the chat. I'd argue that this arrangement was made in bad faith, considering.
And this of course all ties back together to Kamina's past itself:
Hunter and Ezio, two members from 2011, directly accused Kamina of having an abusive relationship with Hunter when she was underaged.
Kamina has a history of such relationships.
The past is terribly important. And Kamina wanted to escape it with good reason.
So when you ask me to have some sort of sympathy for Kamina having her identity revealed, I'd also ask you to have some sympathy for the people that were wronged as a result of it for the charade's duration.
I don't give a good golly gosh about perceptions. You OWN what you did. You don't get to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
Kamina's concerns don't get to override the concerns of everyone else. There was much more at play than mere ideology.
And furthermore, there was nothing cruel about the way Alice handled this. If you would refer back to the "Shark Fin Soup" post, you would see that Alice had in fact, talked to them privately and gave them ample opportunity to come clean about the truth on their own terms. A gesture I believe to be way more than fair.
However they squandered the opportunity and refused. As a result, Alice changed a name.
So what are we left with now?
Let's do a quick recap! (it's not a parody of yours I swear.)
1.) Someone made a choice to lie about who they were.
2.) They exploited this new identity at the expense of others.
3.) When given the option to tell the truth on their own terms, they refused.
4.) The Truth was revealed. One -falsely- believed Alice used a dox; another -falsely- believed it was an anti-transgender tactic.
5.) They both conspired to hurt Alice, using an unmedicated alcoholic.
6.) Neither of them feel remorse over their actions.
I left out the bit where you said they had been wronged before and it had accumulated. You have yet to provide any evidence of that. so I'm throwing it right the heck out. Right into the garbage. Right in the Traesh.
Remind me again why you think Alice owes any of them an apology?
I'd ESPECIALLY like to hear why you think she owes Blu one.
In fact I'm quite unsure where this piece of the narrative came from exactly. This was supposed to be about you apologizing for saying something fudged up. You know, the whole "Alice2 deserved to be doxxed" thing.
Thus far you have not provided sufficient evidence for this statement to hold any merit, and I'm still expecting an apology.
You don't even need to give it to me, you can just directly send it to Alice. You know her email right?
As for the others apologizing to Alice, I can safely say I don't expect it.
Being willing to Dox someone doesn't exactly go hand in hand with the considerate, remorseful type. I already mentioned this.
However, I would actually like to believe you're better than that. You haven't doxxed anyone to my knowledge, so I'd expect you to be perfectly capable of apologizing.
Those two though? I ain't holding out much hope.
Now onward to the victim blaming point!
First of all it's not virtue signaling OR an attempt at character assassination. It's literally what you're doing. You fit the definition to an absolute T. I'm sure that sucks to hear and I'm sorry, I mean I'd feel pretty bad if someone accused me of it too. But I'm callin' it like I see it. Doesn't mean you're beyond redemption or whatever, I mean I am still expecting to hear an apology from you. I wouldn't be asking for one if I thought you were incapable of it.
Hoo boy.
Now I gotta admit I had a big grin on my face at this next part:
"There is a reason why victimology is a real field of study. Because matters of responsibility, accountability, crime, and victimhood are complex matters"
Now I don't know how much you know about me, but I actually have a couple degrees in criminal justice! I have a few courses of victimology under my belt.
However!
The great irony of that statement is that you don't even need to have an education in psychology or criminal justice to tell you that ur rong:
You see 2B, if you literally go to the Wikipedia definition of "Victim Blaming" you can literally just read the second sentence.
"The study of victimology seeks to mitigate the perception of victims as responsible."
(The source on that is the Journal of Interpersonal Violence. It's a peer-reviewed academic journal.)
Now I'll fully agree with you that victimology is a pretty complex area of study. Believe me, I spent a lot of sleepless nights on the subject. But I gotta tell you, victim blaming has no place in the field, outside of being something that needs to be corrected.
I could go further and tell you that you'd fit nicely into something called FAE (Fundamental Attribution Error), but I've been spending almost this entire time trying to convince you why your outlook is fallacious, so we'll just ignore that!
You say that there is culpability on both sides, but at some point you need to acknowledge that the scales are VASTLY shifted.
In fact, I still don't even really see anything she is truly culpable for. I mean I'm well aware she isn't a saint (she has terrible taste in music) but I mean, come on dude.
At SOME point you have to prove this to me. You need to TELL me what she did that was so wrong, at least something that I can't debunk right out of hand.
Also for the record, when she said "It's one I can live with" I'm pretty sure she wasn't expecting people she had known for years to do one of the most repugnant things you can do online. I certainly wasn't, and I'm a stone cold cynic. But I guess according to you we should always prepare for the worst from people. Out of everything you've impressed upon me, I'll be keeping that one in mind.
Because the worst is certainly what they tried to give her.
It is funny though, despite everything they tried to do to her: We never for one moment considered doxxing them in return.
Insolently yours,
-Kermit